Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN Why don't you give your RCS value for both then ?

No one on this forum has this kind of data. It is a so sensitive data (as the range of a air to air missile for exemple).
We just know that M2000 RCS, a now old plane is somewhere in the 1 to 1,2 m² range. And the Rafale without Spectra is 1/10 to 1/20 of that. so somewhere 0,12 to 0,05m².

The actual RCS of Rafale, combined to Spectra, is said enough by the french air force. This is why the R&D effort called DEDIRA (DEmonstrateur de DIscrétion RAfale = To improve the stealth of Rafale) will not be used so far.

There is no trustable data about F35 one.

 

[BON PLAN]

ASQ-239 EW on F 35 can do everything spectra can do. as i said we should talk about Rafale capabilities only in south Asian context.

prove it !
If it is like the internal targeting system unable to laser a target.....

 

[BON PLAN]

The LO Rafale was able to hit with several rounds a Lybian air base despite the SAM installed by Turkish air force.....
once again.

 

[Fonck83]

@Thermonuclear ???
OK you have the Fiel of view and the FoV resolution but where are :
- the bandwidth resolution ?
- the dynamic ?
- the dynamic resolution ?
- the zoom power
- the processing agility (ie : not the processing power but the abilty to process fast without using power)

 

[Fonck83]

First of all EW is no true stealth & Even if we take your RCS value which is pure crap since with weapons it will be higher than what you claim. Let's take your RCS without spectra into account 0.12m2 to 0.05m2. let's assume they are from front, which in F 35 case is 0.0001m2. that's still 1200 to 500 times higher RCS than F 35.
That's roughly 5 to 6 times smaller detection range. Rafale loose again.

Even if assume spectra is being used as a protective jamming shield , but that is also done by F 35 ASQ 239 EW system but much more effectively. How? Jamming power required to hide an aircraft is directly proportional to it's RCS.
a small RCS means better jamming efficiency (higher J/S) & better burn-through range. Rafale loose once again.

And ??
1 - Once again Small RCS is useless against any big RCS if you do use your Radar or any activ detection systems.
2 - when this low rcs are true fighters will fight at very low range from one to the other then clearly in the FoV from DDM or EODAS.

 

[BON PLAN]

DBEM (DÃtection et Brouillage ElectromagnÃtique) - RWR/ECM

• Programmable threat libaries
• ELINT/SIGINT functions
• Fully fused with other on- & offboard sensor data

RWR/ESM

• Digital receivers
• 3 antennas with 120° azimuth coverage each located on the intakes and fin tip pod, plus additional antennas on the wing tips
• Interferometry (azimuth & elevation) with stated <1 deg bearing accuracy
• 2-40 GHz frequency coverage (some sources suggest lower end coverage ~200 MHz)
• geolocation of emitters
• ~250 km detection range (dependent on the emitter)
• Target coordination generation for weapons employment

DECM

• 3 AESA antennas on the fin root and canard roots
• DRFM based
• Pencil thin jamming beams
• offensive, defensive and stealthy modes

DDM (Détecteur infrarouge de Départ de Missiles) - MLD

• 2 mid-wave IIR sensors on the fin tip pod sides (360 deg azimuth coverage)

DAL (Detecteur d?Alerte Laser) - LWR

• 3 sensors on the front fuselage sides and the rear of the SPECTRA fin tip pod

Decoy dispensers

• 4 vertical firing flare/decoy dispensers on the top of the fuselage near the wing trailing edges and 2 chaff dispensers on the rear fuselage sides behind the wings .

http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/rafale-the-omnirole-stealth-fighter

It is the same than to say that a Volkswagen Golf is equipped with 4 wheels, a 1600cm3 motor, a gearbox and a driving wheel....
All is right, but it gives no real data about the spec.

 

[BON PLAN]

DBEM (DÃtection et Brouillage ElectromagnÃtique) - RWR/ECM

• Programmable threat libaries
• ELINT/SIGINT functions
• Fully fused with other on- & offboard sensor data

RWR/ESM

• Digital receivers
• 3 antennas with 120° azimuth coverage each located on the intakes and fin tip pod, plus additional antennas on the wing tips
• Interferometry (azimuth & elevation) with stated <1 deg bearing accuracy
• 2-40 GHz frequency coverage (some sources suggest lower end coverage ~200 MHz)
• geolocation of emitters
• ~250 km detection range (dependent on the emitter)
• Target coordination generation for weapons employment

DECM

• 3 AESA antennas on the fin root and canard roots
• DRFM based
• Pencil thin jamming beams
• offensive, defensive and stealthy modes

DDM (Détecteur infrarouge de Départ de Missiles) - MLD

• 2 mid-wave IIR sensors on the fin tip pod sides (360 deg azimuth coverage)

DAL (Detecteur d?Alerte Laser) - LWR

• 3 sensors on the front fuselage sides and the rear of the SPECTRA fin tip pod

Decoy dispensers

• 4 vertical firing flare/decoy dispensers on the top of the fuselage near the wing trailing edges and 2 chaff dispensers on the rear fuselage sides behind the wings .

http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/rafale-the-omnirole-stealth-fighter

First of all EW is no true stealth & Even if we take your RCS value which is pure crap since with weapons it will be higher than what you claim.
Let's take your RCS value without spectra into account , 0.12m2 to 0.05m2. let's assume they are from front, which in F 35 case is 0.0001m2. that's still 1200 to 500 times higher RCS than F 35.
That's roughly 5 to 6 times smaller detection range. Rafale loose again.

Even if we assume spectra is being used as a protective jamming shield , but that is also done by F 35 ASQ 239 EW system but much more effectively. How? Jamming power required to hide an aircraft is directly proportional to it's RCS.
a small RCS means better jamming efficiency (higher J/S) & better burn-through range. Rafale loose once again.

As already said. You don't know the real RCS of F35. What kind of F35? the carrier one with larger wings and a arrested hook? the export version? The one with ASRAAM under the wings? One which need to regularly open the hatch so as to cool the bay?

And you don't know how Spectra affect Rafale stealth. During a 2006 (If I remember well) training versus GB eurofighter, the english pilots didn't understand why their radar can't catch the Rafale. It is on goal of the Rafale : to avoid the opponent targeting system to elaborate a fire solution.

It's not without reason than Spectra alone used 25% of the total R&D effort to built Rafale.... and it evolves et every batch. Last items : to cover a far wider bandwidth (thank to Indian request). Next item : GaN emitters.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Why this conflict of F-35 vs Rafale Is going on this forum for decades?
Real competition of rafale is Chinese J-20.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

 

[LDev]

The LO Rafale was able to hit with several rounds a Lybian air base despite the SAM installed by Turkish air force.....
once again.

Not comparable to what the IAF will face over Tibet. The Turkish SAM had a range of <40 km as far as I know. The HAMMER comfortably outdistances that so that Turkish SAM battery was outclassed. But over Tibet the PLAAF HQ-9 systems have missiles with a range of ~200 km. So it will have to be a combination of Spectra + Scalp or depending on how good Spectra turns out to be Spectra + HAMMER.

 

[BON PLAN]

Not comparable to what the IAF will face over Tibet. The Turkish SAM had a range of <40 km as far as I know. The HAMMER comfortably outdistances that so that Turkish SAM battery was outclassed. But over Tibet the PLAAF HQ-9 systems have missiles with a range of ~200 km. So it will have to be a combination of Spectra + Scalp or depending on how good Spectra turns out to be Spectra + HAMMER.

The lybian desert is.... flat ! nowhere to hide if you don't have a nice cloaking device.
The range of Hammer in low altitude (if it is Hammer the weapon used) is 15km.

In Tibet, there are mountains. Rafale likes mountains....

HQ9 : 200km range is useless if the threat is low altitude. Rafale is made for deep and low penetration. It can fly in full automatic mode to less than 200 feets (200 feets in peace time training. 100 feets for wartime)

 

[WolfPack86]

French defence minister to attend Rafale induction ceremony in Ambala
French Defence Minister Florence Parly will be attending the formal induction ceremony of India's recently-acquired Rafale jets in Ambala on September 10.

The first batch of five French Rafale fighter jets is stationed at the Ambala air force base.

A delegation of defence manufacturing industry representatives is expected to accompany the French Defence Minister on her visit to India. She is also likely to have a separate meeting with Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh.

The first five Rafale jets included three single-seaters and two twin-seater jets which arrived in India on July 29, flying from Mérignac in France via the UAE.

The seven pilots who flew the jets were welcomed by Indian Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria as they landed in Ambala.

It was an 8,500-km journey from Merignac in southern France to Ambala after a layover for the night in UAE.

The first squadron of Rafale jets will operate from Ambala -- one of the most strategically-located airbases that also houses the Jaguars and Mig 21s.

Many feel the strategic location, technical facilities like a strong air defence system and upgraded infrastructure make Ambala the most suited base for the Rafale.

36 Rafale jets comprising two squadrons will become a part of the Indian Air Force in the next two years.

While the first squadron will be operational from Ambala on the Western sector, the other one will come up in Hashimara in West Bengal to combat the escalating Chinese threat.

In a government-to-government agreement in 2016, India decided to buy 36 Rafales from France at a cost of Rs 59,000 crores. This triggered a political storm with the opposition accusing the government of striking the deal at an inflated price. However, the charges were overridden when the Supreme Court quashed the demand for a probe in the deal.

The Rafale is considered an omni-role aircraft, which means it can carry out at least four missions in one sortie simultaneously.

The induction of the jets is considered to be a major boost to India's air defence.

French defence minister to attend Rafale induction ceremony in Ambala

French Defence Minister Florence Parly will visit India on September 10 to attend a ceremony to formally induct five Rafale fighter jets into the Indian Air Force (IAF).

www.indiatoday.in

 

[Rohan Naik]

Kitni ceremony karen gay ye.

I know it's a significant induction, but, at times feel like this is a tactic the govt using to not have people's attention on real issues like health, employment and GDP.
Govt should remain focused on key issues. Induction should be the secondary area.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Kitni ceremony karen gay ye.

Am I the only hoping that more would be signed on this visit?

 

[Tridev123]

I also hope that India and France go ahead and work out an arrangement for additional Rafales for the Air Force. Maybe the total figure could be even 126 the old MMRCA estimate. But
1.The French should manufacture the Rafales in India. If it is at the Reliance - Dassault factory OK.
2.Some substantial technology transfer should take place preferably jet engine technology including hot core technology. This will be tricky as they will resist. But some new technology which India does not have should be transferred. Simply doing screwdriver assembly would be an insult to Indians.
3.The French need to be sincere and help India climb the technology curve in aerospace. They did help us in launch vehicle technology with their Viking or Vikas engine.

The Rafale is a good 4.5 gen plane and outclasses the Pak Block 52 F16 what with its AESA radar and Meteor missiles. All the Flanker varients used by China fall behind the Rafale. The J20 is a bogeyman. Nobody knows how good it is. The number of J20 is still very limited. Almost 98% of the PLAAF cannot match the Rafale. So the Rafale can handle the threat from Pakistan and China.

It is expensive no doubt. But I think India of today with foreign exchange reserves greater than 500 billion US dollars can afford it. I feel that after the import and local manufacture of Rafales no foreign fighter should be imported. Our own proposed LCA mk2 or the MWF will fill the slot visualised for the single engine F16, Gripen etc. It's development should be accelerated.

An emergency procurement of foreign single engine fighters can only be visualised if there is an all out war with China and we need urgent replacements.

The Americans should be happy that we would be using US engines for the LCA and the MWF.
Of course the lack of an indigenous Kaveri turbofan is a reminder of our insufficient efforts in this field. We need to succeed.


There is no need for the Second MMRCA fighter acquisition program of 114 planes
if a good Rafale deal can be sealed.
I support the Rafale for the Naval Aircraft Carrier fighter requirement if the Rafale can indeed fly from our aircraft carriers. Buying the F18 will mean more costs. As the Air Force already flies Rafales maintenance costs will be less vis-a-vis the F18.

It should be our long term objective to develop and manufacture in India all future fighter aircraft and cut imports to zero.

 

[omaebakabaka]

I also hope that India and France go ahead and work out an arrangement for additional Rafales for the Air Force. Maybe the total figure could be even 126 the old MMRCA estimate. But
1.The French should manufacture the Rafales in India. If it is at the Reliance - Dassault factory OK.
2.Some substantial technology transfer should take place preferably jet engine technology including hot core technology. This will be tricky as they will resist. But some new technology which India does not have should be transferred. Simply doing screwdriver assembly would be an insult to Indians.
3.The French need to be sincere and help India climb the technology curve in aerospace. They did help us in launch vehicle technology with their Viking or Vikas engine.

The Rafale is a good 4.5 gen plane and outclasses the Pak Block 52 F16 what with its AESA radar and Meteor missiles. All the Flanker varients used by China fall behind the Rafale. The J20 is a bogeyman. Nobody knows how good it is. The number of J20 is still very limited. Almost 98% of the PLAAF cannot match the Rafale. So the Rafale can handle the threat from Pakistan and China.

It is expensive no doubt. But I think India of today with foreign exchange reserves greater than 500 billion US dollars can afford it. I feel that after the import and local manufacture of Rafales no foreign fighter should be imported. Our own proposed LCA mk2 or the MWF will fill the slot visualised for the single engine F16, Gripen etc. It's development should be accelerated.

An emergency procurement of foreign single engine fighters can only be visualised if there is an all out war with China and we need urgent replacements.

The Americans should be happy that we would be using US engines for the LCA and the MWF.
Of course the lack of an indigenous Kaveri turbofan is a reminder of our insufficient efforts in this field. We need to succeed.


There is no need for the Second MMRCA fighter acquisition program of 114 planes
if a good Rafale deal can be sealed.
I support the Rafale for the Naval Aircraft Carrier fighter requirement if the Rafale can indeed fly from our aircraft carriers. Buying the F18 will mean more costs. As the Air Force already flies Rafales maintenance costs will be less vis-a-vis the F18.

It should be our long term objective to develop and manufacture in India all future fighter aircraft and cut imports to zero.

Except the engine part....license production but tech in aircraft engines is extremely guarded and there are no more than 5 to 7 companies that do that. Unlikely they will share....

 

[Tridev123]

Except the engine part....license production but tech in aircraft engines is extremely guarded and there are no more than 5 to 7 companies that do that. Unlikely they will share....

I know. But we should try to make the impossible possible. Give them the money they ask and don't haggle. Our bureaucrats always are miserly. But also don't get cheated.

 

[omaebakabaka]

I know. But we should try to make the impossible possible. Give them the money they ask and don't haggle. Our bureaucrats always are miserly. But also don't get cheated.

Ya, I don't understand what is happening as we had so many TOT deals in the past but never seem to produce a product that we can keep up with competition and build some key components. I think DRDO is satisfied just being a superficial integrator? May be private companies will do a better job as profit motivation makes them do that?

 

[LDev]

The lybian desert is.... flat ! nowhere to hide if you don't have a nice cloaking device.
The range of Hammer in low altitude (if it is Hammer the weapon used) is 15km.

In Tibet, there are mountains. Rafale likes mountains....

HQ9 : 200km range is useless if the threat is low altitude. Rafale is made for deep and low penetration. It can fly in full automatic mode to less than 200 feets (200 feets in peace time training. 100 feets for wartime)

I suggest you read news reports about what actually happened, unless of course you have a direct source in the Armee del Air that has told you that they released weapons at a range of 15 km. I am reproducing one of the news reports below:

"Now according to 218News, French Rafale destroyed Turkish air defense system in Al-Watiya airbase.

218News learned from an informed source that a series of strikes targeting Al-Wataya Airbase on Saturday night were carried out by a French Rafale fighter from about 70 km away.

The same source revealed that the airstrikes targeted two Turkish defense systems that were inside the base, one of which was completely destroyed, while the other wasn’t, indicating that the range of these air systems is 40 km, a difference of 30 km from the range that the base was bombed at.

Satellite images from Sentinel-2L1C show signs of destruction probably resulted from the recent airstrikes targeted Turkish military equipments including MIM-23 Hawk AD systems in al-Watiya air base in Western Libya.""

French Rafale Jets Allegedly Attack and Destroyed Turkish Air Defense System In Al-Watiya Airbase?

 

[BON PLAN]

I suggest you read news reports about what actually happened, unless of course you have a direct source in the Armee del Air that has told you that they released weapons at a range of 15 km. I am reproducing one of the news reports below:

"Now according to 218News, French Rafale destroyed Turkish air defense system in Al-Watiya airbase.

218News learned from an informed source that a series of strikes targeting Al-Wataya Airbase on Saturday night were carried out by a French Rafale fighter from about 70 km away.

The same source revealed that the airstrikes targeted two Turkish defense systems that were inside the base, one of which was completely destroyed, while the other wasn’t, indicating that the range of these air systems is 40 km, a difference of 30 km from the range that the base was bombed at.

Satellite images from Sentinel-2L1C show signs of destruction probably resulted from the recent airstrikes targeted Turkish military equipments including MIM-23 Hawk AD systems in al-Watiya air base in Western Libya.""

French Rafale Jets Allegedly Attack and Destroyed Turkish Air Defense System In Al-Watiya Airbase?

No special datas.
I just said that AASM Hammer has a range of 15km when fired at very low altitude (and 60+km or slightly more in high altitude) because I though it was a low altitude raid.
70km is out of the GBU possibility. and far too small for SCALP. ie it is probably AASM that was used from high altitude.
As Turkish don't really know what happend + Weapons fired from 70Km => SPECTRA was very effective. isn't it ?