Know Your 'Rafale'

arundo

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I saw this coming. Rafale order book will fill up after Indian purchase. France should give India royalty on every sale they make from now on.
Let's be careful and wait for official confirmation. I am sure the US have more influence in Brazil than in India. Mrs. Roussef is strenghtening the relations to the US, so I guess the last word has not yet been spoken.
Of course that would cement Dassault Rafale as the European Military Aircraft with the probably best future.
 

arundo

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France Cuts Rafale Price To Win Brazil Deal: Paper | Defense News | defensenews.com

France initially asked for $338m per plane in Brazil, revising to $283m (after making heavy cut backs) per plane over 30 years.
That's $35.7b in terms of Indian size procurement, with similar offsets and ToT.
It is clear that with the Indian deal in sight, the unit price will decrease significantly. It is not the same if the development costs are spread over 286 (only F) or almost 450 units. Since the UAE deal becomes more and more concrete, we are talking about more than 500 and perhaps 550 units now (if we include Qatar and Kuwait). OK, the Qatar and Kuwait deals will be signed later (if).
We have to assume that economies of scale will concern spares as well.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Indian Navy to have 100 combat jets, 500 aircraft

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Verma told India Strategic that air power is an integral component of the Indian Navy's modernization programme with at least three aircraft carriers in the future.The Naval Chief declined to mention the exact timelines but observed that each platform of the Navy would be equipped with progressively better technologies and newer generation systems as they evolve. The effort is on acquiring capabilities, and eventually indigenizing them with special emphasis on operational capabilities in the Electronic Warfare (EW) environment.The Indian Navy has already ordered 45 Mig 29K combat jets from Russia, 16 of them in the first lot in 2004, and the remaining now. Incidentally, this is the first time that the Russians are supplying training simulators with their aircraft; the Indian Air Force never got any in the good old days from the Soviet Union or Russia.These Mig 29K aircraft are specifically meant for INS Vikramaditya aka Admiral Gorshkov being acquired from Russia end-2012 before the Navy Day on Dec 4.The 60 other combat jets being planned for acquisition may be different. Adm Verma did not elaborate.All he said was that the Navy has planned for about 500 aircraft, helicopters, LRMR and MRMR included.It may be noted however that various aircraft manufacturers, US Boeing (F/A 18 Super Hornet) and Lockheed Martin (F 35 JSF), French Dassault (Rafale) and Swedish Saab (Sea Gripen) have made presentations to the Navy.At present, only the Boeing F/A 18 and Rafale operate from aircraft carriers while the JSF, the futuristic 5th Generation aircraft under development has demonstrated the capability to land and take off from ships in flight trials. There is also the naval version of the India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) being developed by HAL.The choice should be known after a few years.The Navy has already ordered 12 Boeing P8-I long Range Maritime Reconnaissance aircraft (LRMR) and another 12 LRMR and half a dozen Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft are under consideration.Besides these, the Navy is looking for an assortment of aircraft to operate in the contemporary and futuristic Electronic Warfare (EW) environment with cutting edge technologies.The US has offered Northrop Grumman's advance E-2D Hawkey shipboard aircraft for battle management but that is where it stands. There is no "Yes" or "No" from the Indian Navy.Adm Verma said that what the Navy was looking at were just not numbers of aircraft, ships, submarines and other assets but their capabilities. Any equipment and system has to operate and last for years. New and newer technologies are emerging rapidly and whatever the Navy buys, has to be value for money and security for years to come.As for ships and submarines, he said that by 2027, the Navy should have mostly new 150 ships and submarines to enable operations in both the western and eastern seaboards of India to protect the country's maritime interests.The Navy has also acquired two refueling vessels to enable its ships to stay far from the shores and for longer durations.
© India Strategic

..:: India Strategic ::. Navy: Indian Navy to have 100 combat jets, 500 aircraft
 

p2prada

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$79m (ca. €59m at current exchange rate) is the flyaway price the general pays when he takes delivery today of a Typhoon coming off the Italian final assembly line.
I think that price is only for Italy. The very next line says fly away cost is $121 Million.

Ten years ago the Pentagon launched the JSF at $28m unit flyaway price and most European Air Forces jumped on the jolly bandwagon of the most affordable fighter ever built. It did not pan out.
The cost of the current version of MKI, 10 years ago, was $22 Million a piece. The current cost is $50Million. That's effectively double the cost and matches the inflation rate.

Considering F-35 is an aircraft in development, the costs will be a bit more flexible.

It is not just "60." :D

That has been factored in by France in its costs.
I am more concerned about where the money will be used.
 

SPIEZ

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I think that price is only for Italy. The very next line says fly away cost is $121 Million.



The cost of the current version of MKI, 10 years ago, was $22 Million a piece. The current cost is $50Million. That's effectively double the cost and matches the inflation rate.

Considering F-35 is an aircraft in development, the costs will be a bit more flexible.



It is not just "60." :D



I am more concerned about where the money will be used.
p2p, there was an article from i think Vijender thakur, who said that the cost of Su30 MKI, Indian made version, was very well greater than $100. Is it $100 or $50 ?
 

sayareakd

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shocking part of this MRCA tender

Rafale Partners with Reliance
RIL should become the biggest Indian player in Combat Jets

New Delhi. Dassault Aviation has selected Reliance Industries Limited (RIL) as its private sector partner to manufacture the Rafale Combat jets in India.

Details are not known but Dassault confirmed the agreement with the Mumbai-based Mukesh Ambani-led Indian conglomerate. It was signed a week or so after the Government announced the Rafale as the winner in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) fray Jan 31.
In a statement, the French company said: Dassault Aviation, a major player in the global aerospace industry has entered into an MoU with Reliance Industries Ltd., India's largest private sector company, for pursuing in strategic opportunities of collaboration in the area of complex manufacturing and support in India.
Dassault manufactures Rafale combat jets and Falcon business jets, and the proposed venture should foray into both these sectors.
Company sources also pointed out that much of the tooling and weapons of IAF's Mirage 2000, which are being upgraded to Mirage 2000-5 standards, are common with those of the Rafale, and therefore it would be easier to absorb the new generation technologies, both in manufacturing and operations.
Authoritative sources told India Strategic that the two partners had also informed the Ministry of Defence (MoD).
Any such venture has to be cleared by the Government and several procedural and security clearances would be needed in due course as Reliance gets into the technology induction and manufacturing process.
As HAL is the lead integrator for the MMRCA project, the two companies will have to involve it also.
While in-principle approval for such collaborations already exists as per the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), the Government has just cleared an important proposal permitting the Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs) like HAL to forge partnerships with private sector companies to speed up technology induction as well as production of strategic systems for the armed forces.
RIL, already the top group in India, should become the biggest Indian player in combat jets and allied military systems.
Notably, RIL had inducted Boeing India's former head for defence systems, Dr Vivek Lall, to lead a security and defence subsidiary. The intention apparently was to utilize the opportunities offered by India's growing defence requirements, and the business that offsets would generate for the Indian industry.
Dr Lall, an Indian with US citizenship, has the distinction to have worked in the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the war systems US giant Raytheon and then the civil and military aviation world leader Boeing. He is credited as being one of the 2000 outstanding scientists in the entire world, and he was inducted as a Distinguished Fellow recently at the RIL-funded think tank, the Observer Research Foundation (ORF), apparently for initiating hi tech aviation studies.
The cash rich Reliance should infuse billions of dollars in its new partnership. There are timelines in the delivery of MMRCA, and this venture should be able to exceed the turnover of HAL within five years or so.
RIL has already gone into sophisticated Homeland Security systems to make cities secure, and signed agreements with Raytheon and German Siemens in this regard.
As per the terms of the Request for Proposals (RfP), issued by the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 2007, HAL will be the prime integrator for the selected aircraft. But the winning vendor would have the choice to go in for private or public sector companies, for the 50 per cent offsets commitments mandatory for the deal.
It may be recalled that there was a time when the defence industries were open only to the private sector. But gradually, there has been relaxation as the Indian private industry has been seeking a level playing field with public sector companies in defence manufacturing.
There has also been the inability of some of the Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs) to stick to time lines due to persistent labour trouble, and in some cases poor workmanship resulting from seemingly innocuous but otherwise serious problems like tobacco addiction among employees. The armed forces have been looking at the private sector for quality and timely delivery assurances.
How the Dassault-Reliance venture proceeds will depend on the finalisation of the MoD's negotiations over the acquisition of Rafale. The RfP is for 126 aircraft with an option for 63 more. But over the years, this number should go up to 300 as IAF is looking for 42 to 45 combat aircraft squadrons by 2022 or so.
Notably, IAF, Army and Navy also need transport aircraft. For instance, IAF is looking for replacements for about 60 of its very old Avro aircraft. The Dassault-RIL venture should also open the doors for production of transport aircraft in India.

© India Strategic
..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Rafale Partners with Reliance
 

sayareakd

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10 billion would now go to reliance, EF.................. you have no change to get back, even next 80 would also go his way, if news is true.
 

sayareakd

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even 40 SFC order would also go his way...................................
 

Armand2REP

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Using such a diversified, and well run company as Reliance will make it easy to distribute offsets and absorb technologies. Staying away from India's public sector is wise.
 

SPIEZ

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Something tells me Reliance into the foray is bad.Those brothers are plain thugs
IMO, the Rel group of companies relies on other companies like L&T for the supply of machinery. It's going to be interesting to see from where they are going to help produce the rafale o_O
 

p2prada

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p2p, there was an article from i think Vijender thakur, who said that the cost of Su30 MKI, Indian made version, was very well greater than $100. Is it $100 or $50 ?
No chance at all. Even the Super 30 deal isn't worth this much.

Russia has officially clarified that the Su-30MKM with Brahmos upgrade will cost $50Million for Malaysia. This was mentioned by a Russian official only late last year.
 

nrj

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The upside is the Americans are going to screw the next chance they get.Hope these thugs fall in the wrong Radar
This was the first major deal where India had chance to strengthen its private defense sector. I don't want to say anything more but there couldn't have been anyone other than Dassault who'd have partnered with RIL without giving headache to present regime which may/may-not remain in power after 4-5yrs closing door to any unreliable outsider who may help or motivate digging skeletons. Indeed congress has learnt its lesson from past!

ps: Americans can't do jack but block GOI's aspirations on global front.
 
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Iamanidiot

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This was the first major deal where India had chance to strengthen its private defense sector. I don't want to say anything more but there couldn't have been anyone other than Dassault who'd have partnered with RIL without giving headache to present regime which may/may-not remain in power after 4-5yrs closing door to any unreliable to outsider who may help or motivate digging skeletons. Indeed congress has learnt its lesson from past!

ps: Americans can't do jack but block GOI's aspirations on global front.
They can screw reliance easily
 

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