Know Your 'Rafale'

[p2prada]

Besides, if France pulls this off indeed, it can easily be seen as disloyal concurrency act after which you can kiss any tech share/collaboration with developed nations goodbye.
Is 150 planes worth that?

I think it is. It is not just 150 aircraft. It is 126 followed by a potential order of 200 aircraft within India and another 150 outside India. This would take care of France's ambitions for another 30 years. With all the extra money Dassault would have earned, I am sure other companies and countries in the EU will collaborate with them in new technologies.

 

[JAISWAL]

here is one more artical that proves EFT is more costly.
Even costler then F-35.
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Italy buys its first three F-35s. With a shocking announcement: “a JSF will cost less than a Eurofighter Typhoon” « The Aviationist
++
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Italy buys its first three F-35s.
With a shocking announcement: "a JSF will cost less than a Eurofighter Typhoon"
.
.
On Feb. 7, 2012, Gen. Claudio Debertolis, head of the agency that Is responsible for the procurement of new armaments, has announced that Italy has already ordered the first three Lockheed Martin F-35s.
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Unit price: 80 million USD.
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Talking to the lower house's defense commitee, Debertolis explained that these first planes will cost more than the rest of the fleet since costs are going to decrease as the program, currently in Low Rate Initial Production, continues. The Italian high rank officer is particularly optimistic, as he believes that the unit price will be around 70 million each (Lockheed Martin estimates 65M USD for the F-35A and about 73M USD for the F-35B), less than the 79 million USD currently paid for the Eurofighter Typhoon and much less of the 121 million USD per aircraft anticipated in 2011.
Quite surprising, since unit price is one of the JSF partner's main concern, but possible, considering also that the Typhoon has just lost India's mother of all tenders based on price.
Although there's no official commitment yet, the initial requirement for Italy foresaw 131 examples (69 conventional take-off and landing F-35As and 62 of the short take-off and vertical landing variant F-35Bs). Debertolis confirmed that determining how many aircraft Italy will purchase is not a current task, since it will depend on the Defense Budget Review. Nevertheless, even if the number of aircraft will be much lower than the initial 131, the MoD will work to make sure that the industry will get the expected compensation.
Italy is working on stretching deliveries and slowing purchase "a much easier task than that with the Eurofighter program, since the F-35 procurement is modular therefore delays don't imply increasing costs" Debertolis said.
Furthermore with the recent Eurofighter defeat in India, Italy is going to stop working on the
Typhoon and "divert" part (if not all) of its workforce towards the F-35, being assembled at the Cameri FACO (Final Assembly and Check Out) facility.
Finally, Debertolis has confirmed that Italy will have both A and B variants, with the STOVL (Short Take Off Vertical Landing) ones serving both the Air Force and the Navy, that will use them on the Cavour aircraft carrier.
In spite of the widespread criticism surrounding the program and the global financial crisis it looks like the F-35 has, if not a bright future ahead, at least good chances to survive the austerity measures of the new Monti's technocratic cabinet.

 

[The Messiah]

I'm pragmatic. I'm neither for surrendering foreign policy to US or just oppose them for the sake of opposing like those NAM airheads.

I want to co-operation with US where it benefits and and our own policy when it suits us.

I am of the same opinion but problem is usa will never have equal equal relationship. You know this to be true.

 

[Armand2REP]

Furthermore with the recent Eurofighter defeat in India, Italy is going to stop working on the Typhoon and "divert" part (if not all) of its workforce towards the F-35, being assembled at the Cameri FACO (Final Assembly and Check Out) facility.

Spells the end of Eurofighter...

 

[warriorextreme]

++
.
Italy buys its first three F-35s.
With a shocking announcement: "a JSF will cost less than a Eurofighter Typhoon"
.
.
On Feb. 7, 2012, Gen. Claudio Debertolis, head of the agency that Is responsible for the procurement of new armaments, has announced that Italy has already ordered the first three Lockheed Martin F-35s.
.
Unit price: 80 million USD.
.

so what is per unit price of rafale offered to India??

 

[bhramos]

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/item/51038-the-air-force-gets-its-ideal-platform.html

The selection process for IAF's medium, multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) which ended last week with the selection of the Dassault Rafale, was an exceptional procurement process — free of scams and characterised by professionalism

 

[vanadium]

so what is per unit price of rafale offered to India??

$79m (ca. €59m at current exchange rate) is the flyaway price the general pays when he takes delivery today of a Typhoon coming off the Italian final assembly line.

The Rafale flyaway price is pretty similar. Dassault´s offer to India might have been lower to win the deal. To this you have to add the logistics for a few years. And then the situation gets complicated and impossible to gauge from the outside, because you have to add the premium costs due to offsets and especially ToT transfer obligations. This is a rather grey area where many promises for the future are made, which may have been deliberately kept low (to undercut the competition), only to be re-adjusted (always upwards!) later on. I guess Dassault used such tricks in Switzerland, when they won the competition with their Mirage III vs SAAB Draken. I would imagine this is an area where the Indian MoD will negotiate very toughly in order not to burdened with all kinds of price adjustments at a later date.

On the JSF, interestingly the general is quoting the future marketing (some cynics call it phantasy) price of $80m (flyaway), but he does not reveal how much he has actually paid for the three jets he just ordered. I bet it is more than $80m apiece. In fact a lot more. One can understand his reluctance. It could be rather shocking for the Italian taxpayer going through a severe austerity phase. So better quote the bargain figure of $80m based on a total production run due to be reduced and on an average steady state production which will probably reached post-2020.

Ten years ago the Pentagon launched the JSF at $28m unit flyaway price and most European Air Forces jumped on the jolly bandwagon of the most affordable fighter ever built. It did not pan out.

 

[sukhish]

Armand,
a question for you, will france ever buy F-35. is france a competitor to the U.S in terms of fighter jets. in other words was france involved in the F-35. I know briton was involved to some limited extent, but what about france.

 

[vanadium]

Spells the end of Eurofighter...

Re. "Furthermore with the recent Eurofighter defeat in India, Italy is going to stop working on the Typhoon and "divert" part (if not all) of its workforce towards the F-35, being assembled at the Cameri FACO (Final Assembly and Check Out) facility."

Blogger bullshit at its most supreme manifestation!

Italy, as indeed the other three nations, are contractually bound to the orders they have made and to the overall contractual umbrella.

No nation has formally cut its initial order intake. Plenty of talks but no formal action. Orders can be reduced without paying penalties only if all the four nations agree to simultaneous cutbacks. If Italy reduces its orders alone the penalties are so heavy that very little is saved!

What is at risk is the planned intake of JSF (131 a/c) as there are no contractual obligations and the number is excessive and far beyond the estimated budget.

So the rumors about the Eurofighter demise are rather premature...

 

[vanadium]

Armand,
a question for you, will france ever buy F-35. is france a competitor to the U.S in terms of fighter jets. in other words was france involved in the F-35. I know briton was involved to some limited extent, but what about france.

I hope you do not mind me answering the "Non France" bit, i.e the UK participation in JSF.

The UK--both at the State and industry levels--is together with the US a founding member of the JSF Programme. Their interest and contribution was mainly involved around the STOVL version, where both BAES and Rolls-Royce were at the time (late 1980s) the authorities in that specialist field. Both companies participated in the conceptual design and then development of JSF. It is quite long and complex story, but I´ll cut it short here.

If France buys the JSF (In industrial quantities of course) champagne for all the forum members on my account!

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Spells the end of Eurofighter...

If India did not buy Rafeal then Dassult would have gone bust, its also known that Indian Defense minister was in the phone with his Brazilian counter part few days ago. They had a discussion on the MMRCA and it is rumored that MoD suggest Raff to Brazil to.

From now on you should be thanking us PROFOUNDLY!:wof:

 

[vanadium]

++
rafale b with rafale m stationed together

small radar

 

[Cola]

France Cuts Rafale Price To Win Brazil Deal: Paper | Defense News | defensenews.com

France initially asked for $338m per plane in Brazil, revising to $283m (after making heavy cut backs) per plane over 30 years.
That's $35.7b in terms of Indian size procurement, with similar offsets and ToT.

Armand, can you explain how Dassault manged to cut to $158m per plane over lifetime (if Dassault's bid is $20b) in India?
(you can send me PM is you don't wanna EF economists see that)
Is it the vision and glossy display spread over mere 20 pages, unlike EF's boring and over-detailed 150 pages one, that wins the deal?

 

[Armand2REP]

Brazil will buy 36 French Rafale fighter


France's commitment to transfer technology has been the main reason for the preference of the Brazilian government for the Rafale.
EL UNIVERSAL
Thursday February 9, 201210:21 a.m.

Rio de Janeiro. - The long process of open tender to purchase 36 new fighter jets for the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) will be defined shortly in favor of Rafale Dassault French factory, said today the Brazilian newspaper Folha de Sao Paulo.

According to the usually well-informed political columnist Eliane Cantanhede of the daily Folha de Sao PauloThe decision of President Dilma Rousseff will be announced after 6 next May, when there will be the second round of French presidential elections, in which Nicolas Sarkozy seek reelection, DPA said.

Cantanhede said the decisive factor in defining the Brazilian option for the French offer was the announcement of the government of India to acquire 126 fighter Rafale, which completed the first international sale of these aircraft, which until now were only used by the French Air Force .

Brazilian Defense Minister, Celso Amorim, who visited India at the same time, then said in a note that the agreement reached by the government of New Delhi with Dassault, 108 of the 126 aircraft will be built in India, "with transfer technology. "

France's commitment to transfer technology has been the main reason for the preference of the Brazilian government for the Rafale, which are the most expensive aircraft in the group of three finalists in the dispute, which also includes the Gripen NG, Saab of Sweden, and F-18 Super Hornet of U.S. Boeing.

Furthermore, the columnist says that the sale to India will enable Dassault reach a production scale can lower the price of the aircraft and its maintenance.

The tender for the purchase of 36 new fighter was launched in Brazil under President Fernando Henrique Cardoso (1995-2002), and crawled over the two terms of his successor, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva (2003-2010), who came to announce his decision in favor of the Rafale but then went back and did not specify the business.

On assuming power in January 2011, Rousseff suspended the announcement of the results of the dispute as a result of budget cuts of 30,000 million issued at the beginning of his administration.

According Cantanhede, in the last year the president re-analyzed the proposals of the three finalists and eventually opted for the Rafale, convinced that the Gripen NG "is just a project, and Sweden has zero political weight" and that "it is impossible trust in the promise of technology transfer from the United States, subject to the moods of Congress (U.S.) and the alternation of power. "

http://www.eluniversal.com/internacional/120209/brasil-comprara-36-cazabombarderos-rafale-franceses

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafale Price Undercuts Eurofighter by 25 Percent: Report

NEW DELHI — India's selection of Dassault Aviation as the preferred bidder for a 126-fighter jet deal was largely based on a price tag 25 percent cheaper than the French firm's Eurofighter rival, a report said Feb. 10.

The Times of India quoted a defense ministry source as saying the Eurofighter consortium bid with its Typhoon jet would have cost $5 billion more than Dassault's Rafale fighter.

"The French Rafale jet ... beat the Typhoon hollow both in terms of lifecycle costs and direct acquisition costs," the source said, adding that the ministry of defense had consequently ruled out "any comeback" for the Typhoon bid.

The Eurofighter consortium groups Britain's BAE Systems, Italy's Finmeccanica and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company.

British Prime Minister David Cameron said last week that he would urge India to reconsider its decision to opt for the Rafale over the British-backed Eurofighter plane.

Dassault will enter exclusive negotiations with India next week to try and reach agreement on a final contract for the sale of the 126 multi-combat fighters.

The total cost of the deal has been estimated at between $12 billion and $20 billion.

The huge contract to supply war planes to fast-developing India had been fiercely fought over for four years.

In April last year, India pulled a surprise by cutting out U.S. bidders Boeing and Lockheed Martin — much to Washington's disappointment — as well as dropping Sweden's Saab AB and the Russian makers of the MiG-35 from the race.

Rafale Price Undercuts Eurofighter by 25 Percent: Report | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[Armand2REP]

Armand,
a question for you, will france ever buy F-35. is france a competitor to the U.S in terms of fighter jets. in other words was france involved in the F-35. I know briton was involved to some limited extent, but what about france.

France will never buy the Fubar-35. The programme is a total disaster. France is all in on Rafale and seeing its development.

 

[Yusuf]

Brazil will buy 36 French Rafale fighter


France's commitment to transfer technology has been the main reason for the preference of the Brazilian government for the Rafale.
EL UNIVERSAL
Thursday February 9, 201210:21 a.m.

Rio de Janeiro. - The long process of open tender to purchase 36 new fighter jets for the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) will be defined shortly in favor of Rafale Dassault French factory, said today the Brazilian newspaper Folha de Sao Paulo.

According to the usually well-informed political columnist Eliane Cantanhede of the daily Folha de Sao PauloThe decision of President Dilma Rousseff will be announced after 6 next May, when there will be the second round of French presidential elections, in which Nicolas Sarkozy seek reelection, DPA said.

Cantanhede said the decisive factor in defining the Brazilian option for the French offer was the announcement of the government of India to acquire 126 fighter Rafale, which completed the first international sale of these aircraft, which until now were only used by the French Air Force .

Brazilian Defense Minister, Celso Amorim, who visited India at the same time, then said in a note that the agreement reached by the government of New Delhi with Dassault, 108 of the 126 aircraft will be built in India, "with transfer technology. "

France's commitment to transfer technology has been the main reason for the preference of the Brazilian government for the Rafale, which are the most expensive aircraft in the group of three finalists in the dispute, which also includes the Gripen NG, Saab of Sweden, and F-18 Super Hornet of U.S. Boeing.

Furthermore, the columnist says that the sale to India will enable Dassault reach a production scale can lower the price of the aircraft and its maintenance.

The tender for the purchase of 36 new fighter was launched in Brazil under President Fernando Henrique Cardoso (1995-2002), and crawled over the two terms of his successor, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva (2003-2010), who came to announce his decision in favor of the Rafale but then went back and did not specify the business.

On assuming power in January 2011, Rousseff suspended the announcement of the results of the dispute as a result of budget cuts of 30,000 million issued at the beginning of his administration.

According Cantanhede, in the last year the president re-analyzed the proposals of the three finalists and eventually opted for the Rafale, convinced that the Gripen NG "is just a project, and Sweden has zero political weight" and that "it is impossible trust in the promise of technology transfer from the United States, subject to the moods of Congress (U.S.) and the alternation of power. "

Brasil Comprara 36 Cazabombarderos Rafale Franceses - Internacional - El Universal

I saw this coming. Rafale order book will fill up after Indian purchase. France should give India royalty on every sale they make from now on.

 

[lambu]

The Rafale's long flight to India

Long after the streets emptied that chilly winter evening in December 1981, lights were burning on the fifth floor of Vayu Bhavan in the elite Operations Branch of the Indian Air Force. Worrying the brightest thinkers of IAF was a brash new arrival in the subcontinental skies. The US had just announced the sale of 40 F-16 fighters to Pakistan, giving the Pakistan Fiza'ya (as the Pakistan Air Force styles itself) a fighter potent, fast and agile enough to upset the air power balance in the subcontinent. That F-16 purchase unleashed a set of Indian reactions that culminated in last week's decision to negotiate with French Dassault Aviation for 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft, MMRCA for short.
India moved quickly to counter the F-16 with the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 fighters. Soon after Squadron Leader Shahid Javed landed Pakistan's first F-16 at Sargodha Air Base on January 15, 1983, New Delhi signed a contract with Dassault for 49 Mirage 2000s. IAF pilots began training in France, and in 1985 the first Mirage 2000s joined the IAF fleet. This was South Asia's first true "multi-role" fighter, good for strike missions, electronic warfare support, and also fast and manoeuvrable enough for air-to-air combat. From the outset, IAF pilots relished the Mirage 2000 as well as the relationship with Dassault.

Rajan Bhasin, then a young flight lieutenant and later one of IAF's top guns, was in the first batch of eight pilots who went to France in 1984 to learn how to fly the Mirage 2000. He recalls, "The Mirage 2000 was a superb fighter. And the relationship with Dassault was always completely professional. We got the fighter we paid for; and we got the training we paid for. Whatever we wanted extra, we had to pay for it. But Dassault did not cheat."



By 1987 PAF had inducted all 40 F-16s that it had contracted for and, in 1988, Pakistan ordered and paid for another 11 F-16 fighters. But though alarm bells were ringing in New Delhi and IAF was keen to order more Mirage 2000s under an options clause in the contract, it did not do so. The purchase of the Russian MiG-29, reputedly an "F-16 buster" due to its prowess in air-to-air combat, had left no space for more Mirage 2000s.

But IAF's enthusiasm for Dassault fighters still burned bright, especially after the Mirage 2000 demonstrated its ability to strike almost invisible Pakistani positions on the knife-edged ridges above Kargil in 1999. At the turn of the century — with the early-model MiG-21s rapidly becoming obsolete, and with their replacement, the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft still to take to the air (it first flew only in 2001) — IAF formally asked the defence ministry to buy and shift to India the entire Mirage 2000 production line that Dassault was closing down. This would allow Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to build the improved Mirage 2000-5 to replace the vintage MiG-21s. With Dassault shifting production to the new-generation Rafale fighter, France was willing to sell India the Mirage 2000 line.

"IAF told the ministry that we wanted aircraft with which we were familiar. That was the Mirage 2000, and we wanted the latest version: the Mirage 2000-5. As an air force we were very familiar and comfortable with the operational and tactical handling of the Mirage 2000," says Air Marshal (retired) Pranab Kumar Barbora who was Vice-chief of Air Staff till 2010.

But the ministry, stung by the Tehelka expose on corruption in defence procurement, feared that a single-vendor buy from Dassault might be criticised as arbitrary. Pointing out that IAF had not availed of an "options clause" in the 1983 contract for Mirage 2000 fighters, George Fernandes's defence ministry asked IAF to float a global tender for the very best fighter that could be bought from the international market.

Another reason for a new global tender was the fear that the Mirage 2000-5 might no longer be good enough. With the American dependence on Pakistan growing due to the war in Afghanistan, it seemed likely that at least two more squadrons of F-16s would soon join PAF. These would be the formidable Block 50/52 fighters with greatly improved radars and weaponry. And PAF was also slated to get a brand new fleet of over 200 Chinese JF 17 Thunder light fighters.

follow link for further reading ....

The Rafale’s long flight to India | idrw.org

 

[Armand2REP]

I saw this coming. Rafale order book will fill up after Indian purchase. France should give India royalty on every sale they make from now on.

I think you get enough royalties with 50% offsets. It is a record high.

 

[Kunal Biswas]