Know Your 'Rafale'

[Kunal Biswas]

Malaysia in the Rafale's radar

Suddenly, the Rafale odds with Malaysian officials and militaries is rising with great speed."The victory of the Rafale in India has created a shock wave here in Malaysia. Especially because we know the Indians as very demanding neighbors in this kind of negotiation both technically and financially. Before that, it would have been complicated to select an aircraft that had never been sold for export, "says an observer of the defense market in Malaysia.
[...]
"For this type of contract, the price offered will be important. But what is decisive is the overall cost of the equipment, including maintenance costs over the lifetime of the aircraft. This trend is clearly evident during the recent bidding for the purchase of submarines, frigates and helicopters, "said one expert.
[...]
Despite its modest size, Malaysia is the fifth largest customer of the French defense industry. And the future remains bright for sellers of military equipment. "Malaysia continues to represent a large potential in terms of market," said a local source.

Google translated from:
http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article...efense.N168523

Rafale International website:
Rafale malaysia | A Fighter for Malaysia


Rafale ki chandi chandi..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Armand2REP]

They better do it before 2013 Parliamentary elections, it is expected to lose our best buddy.

 

[panduranghari]

You obviously mean China (Taiwan)...as a follow up to the Mirage 2000.

For all the supposed independence of action from the US, France on fundamental issues has rarely deviated from bowing to the US vital interests. So please rest assured, if the Rafale deal with India falls through, France will not sell it to China.

Second point, China would not buy it anyhow...I mean in numbers. Probably a couple of jets, just to see if there were anything worth reverse engineering. I guess they would not find much...

Irrespective of who ever one is, one has to bow to the only super power.....for now. Think about it, why is US a superpower? Is it because they have supernatural powerss? No it purely because it is the country which prints the international oil currency. Look where trying to trade oil in Euros got Saddam and Gaddafi? Look where it is taking Iran?

 

[JAYRAM]

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[JAYRAM]

​

 

[SPIEZ]

So, now that the deal is done, Armand why was there news on the Rafale being rejected during the early phase of the trials ?

 

[Armand2REP]

Dassault did not compile all the tech data in time for the bid.

 

[SPIEZ]

I m guessing either it wasn't available during that time, or certain parameters were under development?

 

[Bhon]

I m guessing either it wasn't available during that time, or certain parameters were under development?

There was actually a mix-up at the DM Office when the tech specs were to be submitted. Dassult failed to provide some info and the DM asked them for it, once the info was provided, the game was back in line. Same thing happened to F/A-18 SH which was to be tailor-built for India just like the others did. But Boeing could not provide the aircraft in time, so they temporarily fitted one of their own fighters up for the role.

 

[pankaj nema]

So, now that the deal is done, Armand why was there news on the Rafale being rejected during the early phase of the trials ?

From the very beginning there was extensive lobbying by all the interested parties

So the confusion of Rafale being rejected was also some dirty trick by the competitors

 

[ashicjose]

Irrespective of who ever one is, one has to bow to the only super power.....for now. Think about it, why is US a superpower? Is it because they have supernatural powerss? No it purely because it is the country which prints the international oil currency. Look where trying to trade oil in Euros got Saddam and Gaddafi? Look where it is taking Iran?

So you are saying we are next coz India going to pay IRAN in rupeese.

 

[panduranghari]

So you are saying we are next coz India going to pay IRAN in rupeese.

NO.

No one crosses the line when its in relation to US. Iran can be subdued. So can India. So can France or UK. That is if US chooses to.

 

[pankaj nema]

NO.

No one crosses the line when its in relation to US. Iran can be subdued. So can India. So can France or UK. That is if US chooses to.

Relax SIr . India knows its limits . India is just making good money at the moment and also earning some
goodwill for the future in case there is a regime change after a war

Iran must consider India as a friend which stayed with it till as long as possible

 

[pankaj nema]

India need Iran not just for oil but also because Iran has land borders with Afghanistan and pakistan
and we have special interests there

In the UN security council Russia and China vetoed the Syrian sanctions and Iran Sanctions
will also be vetoed

SO US Israel have no other option but Unilateral Pre emptive strikes like Iraq

Then all trade comes to a halt . Till that time let India make money

 

[Yusuf]

I think you get enough royalties with 50% offsets. It is a record high.

That has been factored in by France in its costs.

 

[H.A.]

The Rafale's long flight to India

Long after the streets emptied that chilly winter evening in December 1981, lights were burning on the fifth floor of Vayu Bhavan in the elite Operations Branch of the Indian Air Force. Worrying the brightest thinkers of IAF was a brash new arrival in the subcontinental skies. The US had just announced the sale of 40 F-16 fighters to Pakistan, giving the Pakistan Fiza'ya (as the Pakistan Air Force styles itself) a fighter potent, fast and agile enough to upset the air power balance in the subcontinent. That F-16 purchase unleashed a set of Indian reactions that culminated in last week's decision to negotiate with French Dassault Aviation for 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft, MMRCA for short.

But IAF's enthusiasm for Dassault fighters still burned bright, especially after the Mirage 2000 demonstrated its ability to strike almost invisible Pakistani positions on the knife-edged ridges above Kargil in 1999. At the turn of the century — with the early-model MiG-21s rapidly becoming obsolete, and with their replacement, the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft still to take to the air (it first flew only in 2001) — IAF formally asked the defence ministry to buy and shift to India the entire Mirage 2000 production line that Dassault was closing down. This would allow Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to build the improved Mirage 2000-5 to replace the vintage MiG-21s. With Dassault shifting production to the new-generation Rafale fighter, France was willing to sell India the Mirage 2000 line.

"IAF told the ministry that we wanted aircraft with which we were familiar. That was the Mirage 2000, and we wanted the latest version: the Mirage 2000-5. As an air force we were very familiar and comfortable with the operational and tactical handling of the Mirage 2000," says Air Marshal (retired) Pranab Kumar Barbora who was Vice-chief of Air Staff till 2010.

But the ministry, stung by the Tehelka expose on corruption in defence procurement, feared that a single-vendor buy from Dassault might be criticised as arbitrary. Pointing out that IAF had not availed of an "options clause" in the 1983 contract for Mirage 2000 fighters, George Fernandes's defence ministry asked IAF to float a global tender for the very best fighter that could be bought from the international market.

Are there any of these clauses built into the tender framework now?

 

[H.A.]

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I like the image, when and how was the picture taken? I am sure that would have been a restricted airspace.

 

[vanadium]

Irrespective of who ever one is, one has to bow to the only super power.....for now. Think about it, why is US a superpower? Is it because they have supernatural powerss? No it purely because it is the country which prints the international oil currency. Look where trying to trade oil in Euros got Saddam and Gaddafi? Look where it is taking Iran?

You got it!

...and some fools thought it was all about bringing democracy to Irak!

 

[arundo]

Lower RCS? That would be something new.
Regarding air-to-air capacities: Could you please provide your sources? What I have read in other forums (incl. German-language ones) the offical test-results and the tested scenarios are not public available. Biased EADS claims are that 18 EF can do the same A2A what 22.5 Rafales can do (atm both aircrafts don't have AESA).
The only claimed resultsI have seen come from the Baseler Zeitung - without any descriptions of the conditions, the taks and the equipment.

The Neue Zürcher Zeitung (NZZ), which is not really known as a tabloid newspaper, wrote on January 31st that all contenders confirmed the fairness of the technical evaluation "žDie Subkommission habe nach dem Evaluationsverfahren Ende 2009 alle Anbieter eingeladen, sich zum Verfahren zu äussern. Saab, Dassault und EADS hätten zu Protokoll gegeben, dass das Verfahren fair abgelaufen sei. Dies bestätigt GSoA-Mitglied Josef Lang, der damals der parlamentarischen Subkommission angehörte."

Holprige Startpiste für den Gripen (Politik, Schweiz, NZZ Online)

Details of the technical evaluation in CH were published in the Basler Zeitung (which btw has a good reputation) and as of today there is no real reason to doubt it. There is no doubt that some people would have made reference to it, if the conclusion had been a different one. No Swiss official has denied the results released by the Basler Zeitung. It is true that there is an investigation, but the goal is to find out who gave such confidential information to the newspaper.
Quote from the report: «Der Rafale ist das einzige Flugzeug, welches die Anforderungen der Luftwaffe in allen Einsatzarten erfüllt hat." The Rafale is the only aircraft, that has fulfilled the requirements of the Airforce in all types of missions

It is true that we do not have many details, but do we have details from other evaluation processes incl. the IAF one? Not really, we just know which aircraft met the technical requirements and that a feedback was given to each contender. No ranking, no real details of the tests were released. We assume that the trials were prepared and implemented competently (and I hope it's not only because the EF was shortlisted..).
Similarly, even if the profile of requirements is probably different, there is really no reason to call into question the professionalism of the Swiss. In my opinion, we can say that the Swiss evaluation is probably of small interest for India, but we cannot ignore it when it comes to debate the A 2 A capacities of both aircraft, at least for some A 2 A scenarios.

Further details of the Armasuisse evaluation (ok, no info on how it was conducted, configuration, arms etc., but at least..):
According to an Armasuisse Presentation which has been released online, "žoperational effectiveness" amounted to 60 % of the total technical evaluation.
Breakdown of those 60%:

A 2 A (50 %)
Reconnaissance and A 2 G each 20 %
Growth potential 10 %

Finally, the new AESA RBE2 is already in production and will come with the next aircraft, the new CAPTOR-E is still in development.
I recognise that the RCS is lower or higher according to the source you have. But this is a problem we have to face in this debate every day. Therefore it is still better referring to (very likely) impartial rather than to biased sources.