Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

It can go after ISIS, bomb important military targets, disable air defense systems, shoot down enemy fightets, suck all visual and electronic intelligence and pass it on to ots team mates, detect ballistic missiles and even control drone wingmen in the future.
It can also be turned into F-16 and F-15 in Beast Mode.

Sounds like a Rafale.... there is nothing beast mode about the flight envelop of an F-35.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Sounds like a Rafale.... there is nothing beast mode about the flight envelop of an F-35.

F 35 is pretty decent in it's WVR scenarios.


Both the Rafale and the F 35A are excellent fighter jets with overlapping abilities.

 

[asianobserve]

Sounds like a Rafale.... there is nothing beast mode about the flight envelop of an F-35.

Rafale is 70s-80s tech. F-35 is 2000s tech. 20 year gap and the technology in between these periods specially in software and computing power has significantly improved.

I don't even want to mention about electromagnetic and IR suppression through shaping, coating and internal weapons bays in F-35. Sure Rafale can have 1m2 rcs but to maintain that rcs it will only carry its internal cannon - no EFTs, no weapons, no external sensors. Meaning, it'll fight to die. Oh well, French like martyrs anyway...

 

[vampyrbladez]

Rafale is 70s-80s tech. F-35 is 2000s tech. 20 year gap and the technology in between these periods specially in software and computing power has significantly improved.

I don't even want to mention about electromagnetic and IR suppression through shaping, coating and internal weapons bays in F-35. Sure Rafale can have 1m2 rcs but to maintain that rcs it will only carry its internal cannon - no EFTs, no weapons, no external sensors. Meaning, it'll fight to die. Oh well, French like martyrs anyway...

That's a pretty stupid statement to say the least.

Refer to my earlier post for information regarding the Rafale and you will see the many similar systems installed just like the F 35.

1. Rafale has the SPECTRA EW system. SPECTRA will give Rafale firing solution with 1* precision at 200 km.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenc...se-any-serious-threat-to-indian-airforce/amp/

This is a similar capability in comparison to the ALR 94 of F 22 and the AN/ASQ-239 (Barracuda) of the F 35.

DDM-NG has the ability to be used as a passive IRST much like the DAS of F 35 and the AAR-56 MLD of the F 22.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=30296&start=45

The FSO has an IRST upgrade in it's ISE requirements which restores the ability with upgrades like the pre RBE 2 AA AESA radar equipped Rafales.

Refer to this document in comparison. Some figures are incorrect so take everything with a big spoon of salt.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenseissues.net/2015/09/11/dassault-rafale-vs-f-35/amp/

2. Su 57 is a worthy 5th generation successor to the Su 35 BM. Refer to the this APA 2008 comparison.

https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-300309-1.html

Again certain changes have happened. Radars on both the F 22 and the F 35 have been massively improved. Maneuvering ability of F 35A has improved to a superior non TVC Su 30 slow speed maneuvering and F 16 like agility at interceptor configuration with Mach 1.2 supercruise for 150 miles.

The Rafale belongs to the 0.1 msq RCS class. By using active cancellation technology, this figure can be reduced by a factor of 3 , this giving an RCS of 0.03 msq.

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafale is 70s-80s tech. F-35 is 2000s tech. 20 year gap and the technology in between these periods specially in software and computing power has significantly improved.

F-35 flight performance is more like a 3rd generation fighter of the 60s. Rafale can outfly the F-22 in DACTS.

don't even want to mention about electromagnetic and IR suppression through shaping, coating and internal weapons bays in F-35. Sure Rafale can have 1m2 rcs but to maintain that rcs it will only carry its internal cannon -

I don't even want to mention about the defective stealth coat of F-35. It is just too embarrassing... there are so many defects that the foreign partner nations don't even know how to fix it. Sending it back for maintenance every time there is a scratch on the paint doesn't bode well for operational capability.

no EFTs, no weapons, no external sensors. Meaning, it'll fight to die.

I guess it is already dead.

 

[asianobserve]

F-35 flight performance is more like a 3rd generation fighter of the 60s. Rafale can outfly the F-22 in DACTS.




I don't even want to mention about the defective stealth coat of F-35. It is just too embarrassing... there are so many defects that the foreign partner nations don't even know how to fix it. Sending it back for maintenance every time there is a scratch on the paint doesn't bode well for operational capability.

I guess it is already dead.

You wish that F-35 is sluggish in maneuvering. It has more nose authority than any current non-TVC fighter.

You made me laugh about this outrageous claim of non-TVC Rafale outflying F-22. For one the roe is not known. Second, even Rafale was shot down (mock) by 3rd gen F-4 Phantom. Now would you say that Phantom is better than Rafale?

Third, that photo of F-35 with external weapons slung under its wings is a configuration available when air dominance is already achieved. On the first day of conflict, F-35s will go in clean (even AIM9s I think will be removed).

Rafale on the other hand cannot be used on first day on conflict against adversaries like China since it will light up like a Christmas tree as it has to carry weapons and fuel externslly. Chinese SAMs including S-400 will make French mince meat out of Rafales. The only potential Indian adversary Rafale can be of much use is Pakistan. But if Pakistan is able to upgrade its F-16s to Block70 config then Rafale's advantage is severely degraded or vanishes.

 

[vampyrbladez]

You wish that F-35 is sluggish in maneuvering. It has more nose authority than any current non-TVC fighter.

You made me laugh about this outrageous claim of non-TVC Rafale outflying F-22. For one the roe is not known. Second, even Rafale was shot down (mock) by 3rd gen F-4 Phantom. Now would you say that Phantom is better than Rafale?

Third, that photo of F-35 with external weapons slung under its wings is a configuration available when air dominance is already achieved. On the first day of conflict, F-35s will go in clean (even AIM9s I think will be removed).

Rafale on the other hand cannot be used on first day on conflict against adversaries like China since it will light up like a Christmas tree as it has to carry weapons and fuel externslly. Chinese SAMs including S-400 will make French mince meat out of Rafales. The only potential Indian adversary Rafale can be of much use is Pakistan. But if Pakistan is able to upgrade its F-16s to Block70 config then Rafale's advantage is severely degraded or vanishes.

Pakistani F 16s even if upgrades to block 70 cannot match up to the Rafale. The Rafale has supermaneverability in the form of very high TWR, excellent sustained turn rare, excellent instantaneous turn rate and high G performance upto 11Gs as demonstrated in airshows.

This is not counting the RBE 2 AA having a 200 km range at 3 msq RCS target and the SPECTRA EW suite which is similar to those used on F 22 and F 35. The RCS of the Rafale being <0.1 msq also counts towards this premier performance.

 

[asianobserve]

That's a pretty stupid statement to say the least.

Refer to my earlier post for information regarding the Rafale and you will see the many similar systems installed just like the F 35.



The Rafale belongs to the 0.1 msq RCS class. By using active cancellation technology, this figure can be reduced by a factor of 3 , this giving an RCS of 0.03 msq.

Global Security's estimate of Rafale is same as SH at 1m2. What you have there is aldo only an estimate. So all we habe are estimates of rcs. Whst is not in dou t is the radar evading characterstics of F-35 which from the ground up was designed to ebade it.

Rafale which was first concieved in the 70s is not stealth. It emphasized European bias for delta and did not have stealth tech mature enough to come up witj a full on stealth fighter. It's only now 40 years on that France is developing full stealth fighters.

And there is no equivalence between Rafale's sensors integration and EW systems with F-35. It's like comparing Nokia to iphone.

Pakistani F 16s even if upgrades to block 70 cannot match up to the Rafale. The Rafale has supermaneverability in the form of very high TWR, excellent sustained turn rare, excellent instantaneous turn rate and high G performance upto 11Gs as demonstrated in airshows.

This is not counting the RBE 2 AA having a 200 km range at 3 msq RCS target and the SPECTRA EW suite which is similar to those used on F 22 and F 35. The RCS of the Rafale being <0.1 msq also counts towards this premier performance.

Just look at what happened to MKIs against PAF Block 50s? The best that India can do is buy F-21, relocate its factory to India, and have a veto on F-16 upgrade agreements. That way Pakistan will be forced to rely on inferior JF-17s.

Not only will India deny Pakistan F-16 upgrades but it will also have a great plane in the process. On top of that, F-16V is still good business as well as Worldwide F-16 sustainment income from thousands of F-16s that will continue to operate in the next 10-20 years.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Global Security's estimate of Rafale is same as SH at 1m2. What you have there is aldo only an estimate. So all we habe are estimates of rcs. Whst is not in dou t is the radar evading characterstics of F-35 which from the ground up was designed to ebade it.

Rafale which was first concieved in the 70s is not stealth. It emphasized European bias for delta and did not have stealth tech mature enough to come up witj a full on stealth fighter. It's only now 40 years on that France is developing full stealth fighters.

And there is no equivalence between Rafale's sensors integration and EW systems with F-35. It's like comparing Nokia to iphone.




Just look at what happened to MKIs against PAF Block 50s? The best that India can do is buy F-21, relocate its factory to India, and have a veto on F-16 upgrade agreements. That way Pakistan will be forced to rely on inferior JF-17s.

Not only will India deny Pakistan F-16 upgrades but it will also have a great plane in the process. On top of that, F-16V is still good business as well as Worldwide F-16 sustainment income from thousands of F-16s that will continue to operate in the next 10-20 years.

1. Global Security has outdated information. This is as per the Hellenic Air Force.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._RCS_Estimation_and_Anti-Stealth_Technologies

2. Rafale has all the sensor the F 35 and the F 22 have in their inventory.

//

1. Rafale has the SPECTRA EW system. SPECTRA will give Rafale firing solution with 1* precision at 200 km.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenc...se-any-serious-threat-to-indian-airforce/amp/

This is a similar capability in comparison to the ALR 94 of F 22 and the AN/ASQ-239 (Barracuda) of the F 35.

DDM-NG has the ability to be used as a passive IRST much like the DAS of F 35 and the AAR-56 MLD of the F 22.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=30296&start=45

The FSO has an IRST upgrade in it's ISE requirements which restores the ability with upgrades like the pre RBE 2 AA AESA radar equipped Rafales.

Refer to this document in comparison. Some figures are incorrect so take everything with a big spoon of salt.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenseissues.net/2015/09/11/dassault-rafale-vs-f-35/amp/

2. Su 57 is a worthy 5th generation successor to the Su 35 BM. Refer to the this APA 2008 comparison.

https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-300309-1.html

Again certain changes have happened. Radars on both the F 22 and the F 35 have been massively improved. Maneuvering ability of F 35A has improved to a superior non TVC Su 30 slow speed maneuvering and F 16 like agility at interceptor configuration with Mach 1.2 supercruise for 150 miles.

//

3. MKIs managed to dodge and foil the F 16's AMRAAM missiles. This was done using a combination of supermaneverability, chaff and the Israeli ELL-2228WB jammer pod. The Israelis use the AIM 120 C5 as a BVRAAM in their own air force.

Further proof ELL-8222WB saved the day for the Su 30 MKIs!

View attachment 40038

https://www.iai.co.il/drupal/sites/default/files/2019-01/ELL-8212 Brochure.pdf

#PKMKB

Paki ******s can't even afford J 10B. For them F 16 Blk 70 is too much for their paltry wallets. With the Super Sukhoi upgrade and the Rafale, IAF will be the undisputed and dominant air force, this side of Asia!

 

[Armand2REP]

The RCS of the Rafale being <0.1 msq also counts towards this premier performance.

It isn't that low except looking at it from the top down. It was designed for low level penetration strike. Frontal aspect is 0.3m^2 clean. If you load it up with steel drop tanks and steel bombs it is 1m^2 from the front, but it is still 0.1m^2 from the top. The goal is to keep radar off of its external stores and why it was designed to dominate at low and medium altitudes. Anything that is scanning from high above won't see it.

 

[vampyrbladez]

It isn't that low except looking at it from the top down. It was designed for low level penetration strike. Frontal aspect is 0.3m^2 clean. If you load it up with steel drop tanks and steel bombs it is 1m^2 from the front, but it is still 0.1m^2 from the top. The goal is to keep radar off of its external stores and why it was designed to dominate at low and medium altitudes. Anything that is scanning from high above won't see it.

So what is the RCS from the top clean???

 

[asianobserve]

1. Global Security has outdated information. This is as per the Hellenic Air Force.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._RCS_Estimation_and_Anti-Stealth_Technologies

2. Rafale has all the sensor the F 35 and the F 22 have in their inventory.

//

1. Rafale has the SPECTRA EW system. SPECTRA will give Rafale firing solution with 1* precision at 200 km.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenc...se-any-serious-threat-to-indian-airforce/amp/

This is a similar capability in comparison to the ALR 94 of F 22 and the AN/ASQ-239 (Barracuda) of the F 35.

DDM-NG has the ability to be used as a passive IRST much like the DAS of F 35 and the AAR-56 MLD of the F 22.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=30296&start=45

The FSO has an IRST upgrade in it's ISE requirements which restores the ability with upgrades like the pre RBE 2 AA AESA radar equipped Rafales.

Refer to this document in comparison. Some figures are incorrect so take everything with a big spoon of salt.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenseissues.net/2015/09/11/dassault-rafale-vs-f-35/amp/

2. Su 57 is a worthy 5th generation successor to the Su 35 BM. Refer to the this APA 2008 comparison.

https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-300309-1.html

Again certain changes have happened. Radars on both the F 22 and the F 35 have been massively improved. Maneuvering ability of F 35A has improved to a superior non TVC Su 30 slow speed maneuvering and F 16 like agility at interceptor configuration with Mach 1.2 supercruise for 150 miles.

//

3. MKIs managed to dodge and foil the F 16's AMRAAM missiles. This was done using a combination of supermaneverability, chaff and the Israeli ELL-2228WB jammer pod. The Israelis use the AIM 120 C5 as a BVRAAM in their own air force.



Paki ******s can't even afford J 10B. For them F 16 Blk 70 is too much for their paltry wallets. With the Super Sukhoi upgrade and the Rafale, IAF will be the undisputed and dominant air force, this side of Asia!

All we have from open-sources are rcs estimates. And worse these estimates are little more than guess works and based on clean aircraft configurations. So when you add in weapons, EFTs and external sensors the rcs eill definitely spike.

Second, Rafale does not have F-35 sensors! Rafale have different older sensors (that are only lately being implemented due to Rafale's own long development period. And most importantly it doesn't have the kind of software that makes F-35 sensors-to-pilots-to weapons integration seamless.

Re Spectra and Barracuda. Again, no real specs will come out in the open. All we have are conjectures. What is not in dispute is F-35 is the newer and more software intensive plane to fly.

And there's no comparable system in Rafale like DAS that can give 360 vision, intuitive, which is very helpful in attack modes, BVR and most especially WVR combats.

The fundamental point is in today's highly integrated AD systems, especially from threats such as China, bringing to the fight Christmas trees like Rafsle is a no-no. It will be roasted like Turkey.

And with regards to Pakistan, I think India needs to be sober, creative and practical rather than emotional when dealing with it. Thus while its true that Pakistan is puny compared to India yet Pakisyan's military cannot be discounted. The MKI's might have evaded AMRAAMs but they were aldo neutralized in the process. And I have no doubt it was F-16s that initiated the attack. So why not remove any possibilitybof Pakistan getting upgrades for its F-16s?

 

[vampyrbladez]

All we have from open-sources are rcs estimates. And worse these estimates are little more than guess works and based on clean aircraft configurations. So when you add in weapons, EFTs and external sensors the rcs eill definitely spike.

Second, Rafale does not have F-35 sensors! Rafale have different older sensors (that are only lately being implemented due to Rafale's own long development period. And most importantly it doesn't have the kind of software that makes F-35 sensors-to-pilots-to weapons integration seamless.

Re Spectra and Barracuda. Again, no real specs will come out in the open. All we have are conjectures. What is not in dispute is F-35 is the newer and more software intensive plane to fly.

And there's no comparable system in Rafale like DAS that can give 360 vision, intuitive, which is very helpful in attack modes, BVR and most especially WVR combats.

The fundamental point is in today's highly integrated AD systems, especially from threats such as China, bringing to the fight Christmas trees like Rafsle is a no-no. It will be roasted like Turkey.

And with regards to Pakistan, I think India needs to be sober, creative and practical rather than emotional when dealing with it. Thus while its true that Pakistan is puny compared to India yet Pakisyan's military cannot be discounted. The MKI's might have evaded AMRAAMs but they were aldo neutralized in the process. And I have no doubt it was F-16s that initiated the attack. So why not remove any possibilitybof Pakistan getting upgrades for its F-16s?

Read through my post without blabbering nonsense here. That will solve your doubts regarding sensors.

MKIs got outranged by 105 Km AIM 120 C5 missile. R 77E is just 80 Km and the Pakis launched them 45 Km from within their border. Astra missile has 110 km range and will tip the balance. Then Meteor and its 100 Km NEZ and 150 Km maximum range will ensure PAF won't even fly again!

 

[asianobserve]

It isn't that low except looking at it from the top down. It was designed for low level penetration strike. Frontal aspect is 0.3m^2 clean. If you load it up with steel drop tanks and steel bombs it is 1m^2 from the front, but it is still 0.1m^2 from the top. The goal is to keep radar off of its external stores and why it was designed to dominate at low and medium altitudes. Anything that is scanning from high above won't see it.

I thought it is always an advantage to be on higher altitude in air combat. But for lsnd attack, low level, below radar flight is good. But with the proliferation of anti-cruise missile radars, SAMs and AAs, low level flights are a major gamble.

The Brits learned the hard way the inherent danger of low-level penetration in the first Gulf War where their Tornados were shot down. So upon the RAF later on flew their Tornados fron high altitudes.

Since then, due to the advances of cruise missiles and drones, low-level defenses have only gotten more dense and sophistocated.

 

[Armand2REP]

So what is the RCS from the top clean???

0.1m^2, it doesn't really change if it is loaded or clean. You won't be able to scan what is underneath from the top down.

 

[vampyrbladez]

0.1m^2, it doesn't really change if it is loaded or clean. You won't be able to scan what is underneath from the top down.

How about DRFM based AESA RWRs?

 

[asianobserve]

Read through my post without blabbering nonsense here. That will solve your doubts regarding sensors.

MKIs got outranged by 105 Km AIM 120 C5 missile. R 77E is just 80 Km and the Pakis launched them 45 Km from within their border. Astra missile has 110 km range and will tip the balance. Then Meteor and its 100 Km NEZ and 150 Km maximum range will ensure PAF won't even fly again!

If India does not play its cards well Pakistan might get AIM120D and AESA on its F-16s.

 

[asianobserve]

0.1m^2, it doesn't really change if it is loaded or clean. You won't be able to scan what is underneath from the top down.

But modern AD radars especially those optimized for cruise missiles can.

In any case, this claim of topside stealth for Rafale is dubious. Unless, the enemy is directly on top of it then there is almost no real World scenario where the enemy will to directly on top. Most of the time the enemy's angle (from high altitude) of view (radar and FLIR) towards Rafale will always be slightly frontal thus exposing Rafales external stores. Well for one refuelling probe, shaping, exhaust area makes Rafale unstealthy directly from above. Besides, looking from higher altitude Rafales heat signature could be picked up much more easily.

 

[vampyrbladez]

If India does not play its cards well Pakistan might get AIM120D and AESA on its F-16s.

We have RBE-2 AA AESA and Meteor along with N035 IBRIS-E Hybrid ESA and the Astra/R-27 as well.

Dhamka kisko raha hain be laude.

 

[Armand2REP]

I thought it is always an advantage to be on higher altitude in air combat. But for lsnd attack, low level, below radar flight is good. But with the proliferation of anti-cruise missile radars, SAMs and AAs, low level flights are a major gamble.

If you are fighting at high altitude then you want all of the advantage for that altitude. Rafale strat is to make them come down to play to her strengths where the loading of the delta wing has the advantage. Not even an F-35 can detect a Rafale from the top down at any great range. Even if they pick it up on FLIR the AMRAAM still requires a radar lock which they won't have and forces them down to a similar altitude to get enough return to lock it. Rafale doesn't need a radar lock as IR MICA can do BVR without it, same goes for M2000.

The Brits learned the hard way the inherent danger of low-level penetration in the first Gulf War where their Tornados were shot down. So upon the RAF later on flew their Tornados fron high altitudes.

Shot down by AAA... Rafale has AASM to avoid just that and any other SHORAD defences.

Since then, due to the advances of cruise missiles and drones, low-level defenses have only gotten more dense and sophistocated.

Good for them, to the Rafale they are just another target.