Know Your 'Rafale'

[vampyrbladez]

It already contains a lot of ISE enhancements that IAF had to pay on top of the base price for rafale. All those things are included in the base price of f35.
Belgium is not a partner in the JSF program.
It bought 46 F35a for $7.5B.. Deal includes everything compared to iaf rafale deal other than $0.9B for weapons in rafale deal. That still means 36 rafale for $7.8B(without weapons).

The Belgian deal is the F 35A baseline. This is unlike the F 35I for Israel. This means you cannot use Astra or Indian Jammer Pods.

Belgium is also part of NATO. So far other than Israel no other non NATO country has been able to buy this.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Thats all i wanted to hear..
The fact is if IAF could choose from Rafale and F35, it would absolutely choose the latter on operational performance and finances.
Sure the autonomy will not be maintained.
But people claiming rafale is better than F35 is like comparing Hal marut to tejas.

Rafale has supermaneverability, Mach 1.5 supercruise, DDM-NG system like DAS, FSO system like EOTS and low RCS of <0.1 msq.

Su 57 which will be ready by ~ 2025 has a 270* radar coverage, L Band wing mounted AESA RWR,IFF and Jammer. Kinetic performance will allow for Mach 1.5 supercruise, supermaneverability and speeds up to M 2.0+ and the RCS will be reduced from current 0.5 msq to < 0.1 msq.

 

[vampyrbladez]

@Bhurki the Belgian contract was for 34 F 35A jets for €3.8 Billion Euros.

A collaboration agreement was signed last week between Lockheed Martin (LM) and Belgian businesses as part of the Belgian government’s €3,8 contract, linked to the purchase of 34 F-35 fighter jets.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-n...vances-e38-billion-f-35-fighter-jet-contract/

The proposed deal, worth an estimated $6.53 billion, would cover 34 F-35A conventional takeoff and landing models made by Lockheed Martin and 38 F-135 engines manufactured by Pratt & Whitney.

https://archive.ph/20180120200623/h...otential-and-likely-sale-of-f-35s-to-belgium/

The deal excluded armaments, targetting pods, fuel pod, ToT, contract modifications for infrastructure support and other extras. No integration and customer specific customization included.

 

[Bhurki]

@Bhurki the Belgian contract was for 34 F 35A jets for €3.8 Billion Euros.
..


https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-n...vances-e38-billion-f-35-fighter-jet-contract/



https://archive.ph/20180120200623/h...otential-and-likely-sale-of-f-35s-to-belgium/

They've just added 9 more planes to contract for $1.2 B. Try recent news...

 

[vampyrbladez]

They've just added 9 more planes to contract for $1.2 B. Try recent news...

That's the Netherlands deal.

The Dutch government on Tuesday announced plans to purchase nine more of Lockheed Martin's F-35 jets, a move that would bring the country's inventory to 46.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...rlands-to-buy-nine-more-f-35s-for-11-billion/

 

[Bhurki]

Rafale has supermaneverability, Mach 1.5 supercruise, DDM-NG system like DAS, FSO system like EOTS and low RCS of <0.1 msq.

Su 57 which will be ready by ~ 2025 has a 270* radar coverage, L Band wing mounted AESA RWR,IFF and Jammer. Kinetic performance will allow for Mach 1.5 supercruise, supermaneverability and speeds up to M 2.0+ and the RCS will be reduced from current 0.5 msq to < 0.1 msq.

What would rafale manuever against if it can't even see where the target is?..
The concept of DAS was first put forward in JSF program and LockMart is proprietor of majority of tech in this field. A-EOTS on F35a is by far the best integrated system in the world.. Hushkit did an interview with a rafale pilot who clearly mentioned there was no HMD sights on rafale, nor off boresight hit capacity.
Coming to su57.. Really?.. If russians had any interest in the jet other than to try and stop their money invested in it from sinking, why would they still be procuring Su30SM, Su35, while keeping su57 on the back burner.. As of today production no/rate per annum. :
Su57- 12/4
Rafale - 180/10
F35- 455/130

That's the Netherlands deal.

so many countries, such big orders, hard to keep track...

 

[vampyrbladez]

What would rafale manuever against if it can't even see where the target is?..
The concept of DAS was first put forward in JSF program and LockMart is proprietor of majority of tech in this field. A-EOTS on F35a is by far the best integrated system in the world.. Hushkit did an interview with a rafale pilot who clearly mentioned there was no HMD sights on rafale, nor off boresight hit capacity.
Coming to su57.. Really?.. If russians had any interest in the jet other than to try and stop their money invested in it from sinking, why would they still be procuring Su30SM, Su35, while keeping su57 on the back burner.. As of today production no/rate per annum. :
Su57- 12/4
Rafale - 180/10
F35- 455/130

1. Rafale has the SPECTRA EW system. SPECTRA will give Rafale firing solution with 1* precision at 200 km.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenc...se-any-serious-threat-to-indian-airforce/amp/

This is a similar capability in comparison to the ALR 94 of F 22 and the AN/ASQ-239 (Barracuda) of the F 35.

DDM-NG has the ability to be used as a passive IRST much like the DAS of F 35 and the AAR-56 MLD of the F 22.

Last year, the Brazilian news agency Defesanet published a comprehensive test of the Rafale B301 (the aircraft "experimental" Dassault) in its final configuration by the test pilot Vianney Riller Jr. In during this test, it describes a simulated firing whose target is located in its six hours (behind) a MICA missile, using ONLY SPECTRA passive sensors and data fusion. According to the tactical situation picture published in this article shows that SPECTRA includes in its display of infrared data. Upon inquiry, the shot has been performed using (at least partly) the DDM NG as a passive sensor, integrated into SPECTRA data fusion, well beyond ten miles.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=30296&start=45

The FSO has an IRST upgrade in it's ISE requirements which restores the ability with upgrades like the pre RBE 2 AA AESA radar equipped Rafales.

Refer to this document in comparison. Some figures are incorrect so take everything with a big spoon of salt.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenseissues.net/2015/09/11/dassault-rafale-vs-f-35/amp/

2. Su 57 is a worthy 5th generation successor to the Su 35 BM. Refer to the this APA 2008 comparison.

https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-300309-1.html

Again certain changes have happened. Radars on both the F 22 and the F 35 have been massively improved. Maneuvering ability of F 35A has improved to a superior non TVC Su 30 slow speed maneuvering and F 16 like agility at interceptor configuration with Mach 1.2 supercruise for 150 miles.

 

[abhay rajput]

Thats all i wanted to hear..
The fact is if IAF could choose from Rafale and F35, it would absolutely choose the latter on operational performance and finances.
Sure the autonomy will not be maintained.
But people claiming rafale is better than F35 is like comparing Hal marut to tejas.

There is also one more thing that f35 will not be alone in the competition.. Russia's su57 will surely win give the fact that our military to military ties are very good and we have bought s400. So IAF has only two Choices now for 5th generation aircraft either AMCA or SU57 , both of which will be decent plane and better than Rafale in my opinion...

 

[learn from failures]

All the F3R newly built planes (ie including Qatar and India ones) can be upgraded to F4. 2.
Allthe others (including Egypt ones) only F4.1.

Dear BON PLAN.... can you inform why and how only Indian and qataris rafales can be upgraded to F4.2 and Egyptian rafales only F4.1?

 

[Bhurki]

1. Rafale has the SPECTRA EW system. SPECTRA will give Rafale firing solution with 1* precision at 200 km.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenc...se-any-serious-threat-to-indian-airforce/amp/

This is a similar capability in comparison to the ALR 94 of F 22 and the AN/ASQ-239 (Barracuda) of the F 35.

DDM-NG has the ability to be used as a passive IRST much like the DAS of F 35 and the AAR-56 MLD of the F 22.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=30296&start=45

The FSO has an IRST upgrade in it's ISE requirements which restores the ability with upgrades like the pre RBE 2 AA AESA radar equipped Rafales.

Refer to this document in comparison. Some figures are incorrect so take everything with a big spoon of salt.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defenseissues.net/2015/09/11/dassault-rafale-vs-f-35/amp/

2. Su 57 is a worthy 5th generation successor to the Su 35 BM. Refer to the this APA 2008 comparison.

https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-300309-1.html

Again certain changes have happened. Radars on both the F 22 and the F 35 have been massively improved. Maneuvering ability of F 35A has improved to a superior non TVC Su 30 slow speed maneuvering and F 16 like agility at interceptor configuration with Mach 1.2 supercruise for 150 miles.

Awesome description.
I just meant most of the toppings that IAF is getting in its rafale for costs up and extra ( as compared to barebones) are already included in barebones f35a ( other than specialty stuff like alq99/218).
The $100m barebones rafale will not have rbe2 aesa,
obogs,
tcas,
towed decoy,
HMD,
G4 IRST
While f35a does have variants of all these things already operational( except the decoy) for a ticket price of $100m.
To get all of.these.in rafale, extra cash has to be paid..
At last, i don't think its fair to compare f35 to su57 because the former is suppossed to replace the entire air forces and provide multi role capability with stealth while the latter is an air superiority fighter. Su57 is better compared to f22 against which it probably has no chance..

 

[vampyrbladez]

Awesome description.
I just meant most of the toppings that IAF is getting in its rafale for costs up and extra ( as compared to barebones) are already included in barebones f35a ( other than specialty stuff like alq99/218).
The $100m barebones rafale will not have rbe2 aesa,
obogs,
tcas,
towed decoy,
HMD,
G4 IRST
While f35a does have variants of all these things already operational( except the decoy) for a ticket price of $100m.
To get all of.these.in rafale, extra cash has to be paid..
At last, i don't think its fair to compare f35 to su57 because the former is suppossed to replace the entire air forces and provide multi role capability with stealth while the latter is an air superiority fighter. Su57 is better compared to f22 against which it probably has no chance..

Unit cost of a flyaway barebones Rafale is same for 2016 as it was in 2007. This includes the RBE 2 AA AESA, OBOGS and SPECTRA EW suit.

The Su 57 is in the same RCS class as a Rafale but is designed more as an anti - stealth aircraft. We will need it to have a stealth option for our heavyweight fighter units.

 

[BON PLAN]

Its own inability and reliance on just one defense partner forced it go for other countries to import stuff from.
Still doesn't explain why France prices their engineering goods at par with Louis Vuitton bags. I guess they are just not as efficient as others.
I mean germany makes Merc, BMW, Audi, porsche. Japan makes Toyota, Nissan.
And france makes Peugeot..

France make Peugeot, Renault, Citroen, DS, Alpine, Opel. Nissan is part of Renaut Alliance...
But France also make SLBM, deterrence nuclear subs, SSN, SSK ALONE. Where are Germany and Japan ? (Alone please).

 

[BON PLAN]

Awesome description.
I just meant most of the toppings that IAF is getting in its rafale for costs up and extra ( as compared to barebones) are already included in barebones f35a ( other than specialty stuff like alq99/218).
The $100m barebones rafale will not have rbe2 aesa,
obogs,
tcas,
towed decoy,
HMD,
G4 IRST
While f35a does have variants of all these things already operational( except the decoy) for a ticket price of $100m.
To get all of.these.in rafale, extra cash has to be paid..
At last, i don't think its fair to compare f35 to su57 because the former is suppossed to replace the entire air forces and provide multi role capability with stealth while the latter is an air superiority fighter. Su57 is better compared to f22 against which it probably has no chance..

AESA is delivered to ALL export customer. Your 95 million Rafale also.
OBOGS is fitted in Rafale from the F1 standard.
HMD integrated on Qatar planes, delivered before indian ones.
IRST : what is OSF for you? already included since F2 standard.

 

[BON PLAN]

They've just added 9 more planes to contract for $1.2 B. Try recent news...

NO.
It's a Netherlands probable follow on order. Belgium and NL are differents country.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale - 180/10

22 per year actually. (2 per months, 11 month/year).
No problem to go to 33/year on the sole Merignac line.

Missinformed you are. Sorry.

 

[BON PLAN]

Dear BON PLAN.... can you inform why and how only Indian and qataris rafales can be upgraded to F4.2 and Egyptian rafales only F4.1?

With Pleasure !

Egyptian Rafale, and most of the near 150 planes delivered to France are F3O4T. It is possible to upgarde it to F4.2, but it will needs deep hardware upgrade to to so. So France (but maybe not Egypt !) decided to upgrade these planes to F4.1 and not more.
The rest of the actual french 5th tranche, 28 planes, will be built to F3R standard.
All the Qatar and Indian planes are built to F3R.This standard can be upgraded to F4.2, thanks to hard and wiring provisions.

 

[Deathstar]

With Pleasure !

Egyptian Rafale, and most of the near 150 planes delivered to France are F3O4T. It is possible to upgarde it to F4.2, but it will needs deep hardware upgrade to to so. So France (but maybe not Egypt !) decided to upgrade these planes to F4.1 and not more.
The rest of the actual french 5th tranche, 28 planes, will be built to F3R standard.
All the Qatar and Indian planes are built to F3R.This standard can be upgraded to F4.2, thanks to hard and wiring provisions.

Whats the difference between F3R and F4.1 and F4.1 and F4.2????? Will it have engine upgrade too??

 

[vampyrbladez]

Whats the difference between F3R and F4.1 and F4.1 and F4.2????? Will it have engine upgrade too??

Engine upgrade is possibly just a tweaking of data control unit of engine.

 

[Bhurki]

If everything is already there in barebones rafale, then what are ISE?..

 

[asianobserve]

Rafale has supermaneverability, Mach 1.5 supercruise, DDM-NG system like DAS, FSO system like EOTS and low RCS of <0.1 msq.

Su 57 which will be ready by ~ 2025 has a 270* radar coverage, L Band wing mounted AESA RWR,IFF and Jammer. Kinetic performance will allow for Mach 1.5 supercruise, supermaneverability and speeds up to M 2.0+ and the RCS will be reduced from current 0.5 msq to < 0.1 msq.

F-35 from the ground up is a true 5th gen fighter. In fact I'm tempted to describe it as a flying JSTARS, AWACS, B-2, anti-ballistic missile platform and F-22 rolled into one. It can go after ISIS, bomb important military targets, disable air defense systems, shoot down enemy fightets, suck all visual and electronic intelligence and pass it on to ots team mates, detect ballistic missiles and even control drone wingmen in the future.
It can also be turned into F-16 and F-15 in Beast Mode.

And the training environment for F-35s is turning out to be of another dimension. The USAF is building 2 training areas where F-35 pilots can simulate formations attacks against all kinds of threats anywhere in the World. This is on top of all the near real World dissimilar training F-35 pilots undergo regularly.

If India is offered to buy the F-35 and buys it then it will become part of this inviable ecosystem.