Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

But modern AD radars especially those optimized for cruise missiles can.

In any case, this claim of topside stealth for Rafale is dubious. Unless, the enemy is directly on top of it then there is almost no real World scenario where the enemy will to directly on top. Most of the time the enemy's angle (from high altitude) of view (radar and FLIR) towards Rafale will always be slightly frontal thus exposing Rafales external stores. Well for one refuelling probe, shaping, exhaust area makes Rafale unstealthy directly from above. Besides, looking from higher altitude Rafales heat signature could be picked up much more easily.

Rafale doing a penetration strike isn't going to be flying high once it hits the edge of the IADs. It will hit the deck to tree top level to avoid enemy defences both airbourne and ground based. No enemy aircraft will be flying at a similar level to look for it. They will be much higher looking down. If it is directly on top of it or 40 degree angle it doesn't matter as long as they can't get a look at the external stores underneath. At that altitude it would be meshed with ground clutter and you couldn't tell it apart from the trees. If it gets picked up on FLIR then you have to get close enough for an AIM-9X shot, MICA IR wins again.

 

[Armand2REP]

How about DRFM based AESA RWRs?

Spectra can only use Active Cancellation against PESA radars, it doesn't have enough elements to phase out an opposing AESA radar. That won't come until the GaN version. Against an opposing AESA it will use the DRFM technique of projecting 8-10 false returns which will reduce the effectiveness of AMRAAM to 10%.

 

[Armand2REP]

Flying & fighting in the Dassault Rafale: Interview with a Rafale combat veteran

“Typhoon is a joke, very easy to shoot.”

The Rafale and Typhoon are often compared, how confident would you be fighting against a Typhoon? And why?

“I don’t know why they’re compared so often – it’s really not the same design, ideas or philosophy. We’re a truly omnirole platform. Typhoons are great, they like to use their big engines at 40,000 feet. I can’t count how many times I’ve shot down Typhoons at 45,000 feet in the contrails. And my radar off, everything off, I was coming from 100 feet below, supersonic in the climb from below. Absolutely undetected. So I have absolutely no fear of the Typhoons. Both the tactics used by the Typhoons, the agility and the cockpit of the aircraft make it easier for us to take the advantage — basically we have better fusion of the sensors — so we can be way more aggressive in terms of tactics. It’s a great aircraft at high level, but we’re not dumb enough to try to fight Typhoons at 50,000 feet or 45,000 feet. We’re going to put them outside their comfort zone. Against devious tactics. Now if you want to rate a Typhoon with AMRAAMs against a Rafale at 50,000 ft, then, yeah, Typhoon is going to have better performances for sure. But as a Rafale pilot, I’m stupid if I take him on like that, so I’m going to move the combat a bit. I”l fake a combat at 50,000 feet and I’m going to send a guy sneakily low level to surprise the Typhoon, it’s more easy than you think!”

Do you feel confident flying against modern air defences in a non-stealthy aircraft?

“Great question. I’m not sure an aircraft’s stealthiness is going to make much difference anyway against very modern stuff. We’re not afraid of low level penetrations in the french air force. So come and get me with your S-400 if I’m at 200 feet above the ground — that’s not going to happen anytime soon so. I’m not afraid. It’s something we’re trained in and so it’s part of the job. And if you want a lot munitions or stores you’re going to lose on your stealthy signature anyway. So it’s not something of much concern – that’s why we train to keep current at very low level penetration. Which is really good as we get to fly at low level – which is awesome. I can’t complain.”

https://hushkit.net/2019/11/11/flyi...afale-interview-with-a-rafale-combat-veteran/

 

[asianobserve]

Rafale doing a penetration strike isn't going to be flying high once it hits the edge of the IADs. It will hit the deck to tree top level to avoid enemy defences both airbourne and ground based. No enemy aircraft will be flying at a similar level to look for it. They will be much higher looking down. If it is directly on top of it or 40 degree angle it doesn't matter as long as they can't get a look at the external stores underneath. At that altitude it would be meshed with ground clutter and you couldn't tell it apart from the trees. If it gets picked up on FLIR then you have to get close enough for an AIM-9X shot, MICA IR wins again.

That's not going to work now with modern AESA multimode (A2A and A2S) radars like the AN/APG-81 fused with other sensors. In fact, F-35s AN/APG-81 is designed to detect and track terrain-hugging cruise missiles. So a plane like Rafale doing a nap-of-the-earth flight is a bigger and easier target for modern fighters like the F-35. The Russians are also developing AESA's with similar capabilities.

It's no surprise therefore that while older B-2's flight profile is optimized for low level flight (B-1s also), all succeeding fighters (F-22 and F-35) and the new B-21 bomber are all optimized for high level flights. Low level flight has already become suicidal.

At least with high level flights a pilot has longer time to counter SAM, A2A missiles, AAAs or fighters. But on lower altitude once your detected by modern close air defense systems you're as good as dead.

 

[Armand2REP]

F-35s AN/APG-81 is designed to detect and track terrain-hugging cruise missiles.

Within AIM-9X range... a cruise missile doesn't fight back, a Rafale will shove a MICA up your ass long before that.

 

[asianobserve]

Within AIM-9X range... a cruise missile doesn't fight back, a Rafale will shove a MICA up your ass long before that.

Hahaha! You're clutching straws. It means that an F-35 will see first Rafale from high altitude and will be able to fire first.

Nap-of-earth tactics will work only against smaller air forces.

 

[Armand2REP]

Hahaha! You're clutching straws. It means that an F-35 will see first Rafale from high altitude and will be able to fire first.

Nap-of-earth tactics will work only against smaller air forces.

Firing what is the question. AMRAAM isn't going to lock a Rafale at tree top level with so much background clutter and Spectra sending out false returns. The only effective weapon is the AIM-9X and that is outranged by MICA IR by a factor of 3X.

 

[asianobserve]

Firing what is the question. AMRAAM isn't going to lock a Rafale at tree top level with so much background clutter and Spectra sending out false returns. The only effective weapon is the AIM-9X and that is outranged by MICA IR by a factor of 3X.

You forget datalink. The F-35 can guide an AMRAAM right to its target if it needs to.

 

[asianobserve]

And btw, you try to jam an AIM120D then you're dead as it has a home-on-jam capability. In other words, it can passively hit a target if the target is trying to jam the airspace around it.

 

[Armand2REP]

You forget datalink. The F-35 can guide an AMRAAM right to its target if it needs to.

Datalink to what... another F-35 that has the same problem? It is flying at tree top level, the nearest sensor is your best sensor and that is the one MICA has already shot down.

 

[Armand2REP]

And btw, you try to jam an AIM120D then you're dead as it has a home-on-jam capability. In other words, it can passively hit a target if the target is trying to jam the airspace around it.

Spectra uses LPI AESA modules, an outmoded AMRAAM isn't locking on to shit until it uses its own AESA antenna.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale is 70s-80s tech. F-35 is 2000s tech. 20 year gap and the technology in between these periods specially in software and computing power has significantly improved.

I don't even want to mention about electromagnetic and IR suppression through shaping, coating and internal weapons bays in F-35. Sure Rafale can have 1m2 rcs but to maintain that rcs it will only carry its internal cannon - no EFTs, no weapons, no external sensors. Meaning, it'll fight to die. Oh well, French like martyrs anyway...

always the same joke.

 

[BON PLAN]

Then Meteor and its 100 Km NEZ and 150 Km maximum range will ensure PAF won't even fly again!

Meteor NEZ is said to be 60km. Maybe really a little bit more, but 100km seems too optimistic.
When AMRAAM C7 is in the 20 to 25km.

 

[Armand2REP]

Meteor NEZ is said to be 60km.

I never heard of it being that small. It cruises at Mach 3 for the 300km range. An aircraft running away at Mach 1.5 would be intercepted within 150km.

 

[asianobserve]

Datalink to what... another F-35 that has the same problem? It is flying at tree top level, the nearest sensor is your best sensor and that is the one MICA has already shot down.

MICA is useless when Rafale that carries it already crashed and burned.

 

[abhay rajput]

All we have from open-sources are rcs estimates. And worse these estimates are little more than guess works and based on clean aircraft configurations. So when you add in weapons, EFTs and external sensors the rcs eill definitely spike.

Second, Rafale does not have F-35 sensors! Rafale have different older sensors (that are only lately being implemented due to Rafale's own long development period. And most importantly it doesn't have the kind of software that makes F-35 sensors-to-pilots-to weapons integration seamless.

Re Spectra and Barracuda. Again, no real specs will come out in the open. All we have are conjectures. What is not in dispute is F-35 is the newer and more software intensive plane to fly.

And there's no comparable system in Rafale like DAS that can give 360 vision, intuitive, which is very helpful in attack modes, BVR and most especially WVR combats.

The fundamental point is in today's highly integrated AD systems, especially from threats such as China, bringing to the fight Christmas trees like Rafsle is a no-no. It will be roasted like Turkey.

And with regards to Pakistan, I think India needs to be sober, creative and practical rather than emotional when dealing with it. Thus while its true that Pakistan is puny compared to India yet Pakisyan's military cannot be discounted. The MKI's might have evaded AMRAAMs but they were aldo neutralized in the process. And I have no doubt it was F-16s that initiated the attack. So why not remove any possibilitybof Pakistan getting upgrades for its F-16s?

Here is the thing man , f16/f21 can not win IAF mrca2.0 competition because it is neither cheap nor best.. typhoon was better than f16 which doesn't even have an aesa radar... And why would Modi govt. Choose a plane which was shoot down by mig21.. opposition can bring govt. Down with this afterall it will be not like "Rafale scam" ... On top of that IAF would never select any American fighter plane. That's just fantasy and I know this because my father works for MOD. He have told many stories about Americans in the past 25 years..

 

[asianobserve]

Here is the thing man , f16/f21 can not win IAF mrca2.0 competition because it is neither cheap nor best.. typhoon was better than f16 which doesn't even have an aesa radar... And why would Modi govt. Choose a plane which was shoot down by mig21.. opposition can bring govt. Down with this afterall it will be not like "Rafale scam" ... On top of that IAF would never select any American fighter plane. That's just fantasy and I know this because my father works for MOD. He have told many stories about Americans in the past 25 years..

Another grandchild of Nehru. The only thing wrong with American fighters is that they're "American." Please backread my posts I'm getting tired at this....

 

[Armand2REP]

Another grandchild of Nehru. The only thing wrong with American fighters is that they're "American." Please backread my posts I'm getting tired at this....

The worst thing about them is ITAR.

 

[asianobserve]

The worst thing about them is ITAR.

That's a small price to pay for gaining access to the best and most cutting edge weapons, support and trsining in the World. ITAR also means that it's less likely that China will gain access to sensitive American weapons tech. Whereas, war profiteers don't really care about Indian national security. All they care about is selling weapons to Indians and everybody else welling to buy. They're so desperste for profit that they would even bribe Indian officials.

 

[BON PLAN]

I never heard of it being that small. It cruises at Mach 3 for the 300km range. An aircraft running away at Mach 1.5 would be intercepted within 150km.

NEZ, against all kind of agile fighter... It's already at least 2 to 3 much more than AMRAAM like missile.
May be the 60km is given with a confortable margin. I don't know.

300Km ? in ballistic mode maybe. 100+ km (ie 150 ?) with engine ON.