Know Your 'Rafale'

[mayfair]

If we can replace the engine of tejas we can do the same with Gripen too.

No we cannot. Engine replacement is not the same as changing tyres. The entire network and sub-systems and avionics, software (mostly likely with no source-code access) etc. will have to be reconfigured and re-evaluated and it'll be a costly and tedious affair to get the manufacturer aboard for all the testing and validation that would follow.

Tejas being our system allows us much greater control and leverage over these changes. Also if we do replace the engine on Tejas, we'll be doing so with a desi engine. Mating a self-owned system with another self-owned system will be far easier than attempting to mate a foreign system with our powerplant.

Plus, it's not just the engine on Gripen, a lot of other key tech also comes from non-Swedish entities. How much tech transfer can they assure?

 

[assassin162]

More the reason for quick induction of Rafale.
The thing is Rafale is not a choice but necessity for the next decade.
https://zeenews.india.com/world/che...rmy-air-force-plaaf-ace-unit-2240335.html/amp

 

[captscooby81]

@BON PLAN @Armand2REP . When is Nueron planned for induction ? or will it be just a Tech demonstrator only ? can it act like wingman for Rafale ?

 

[Flying Dagger]

There was never any other for MMRCA.
To begin with dont you see IAF and leaders in command's approach to Rafale vs others.
Further we are still not comfortable with Americans and more so after S400 controvercy.
Only comparable one may have been Eurofigher but it will lose on 2 counts - As Rafale has already built an ecosystem in India, as it has already done a lot of India bound changes Eurofighter wont be able to match its quite. Point 2 - India will not go with a product like Eurofighter which has multiple fathers and a grand daddy European Union who all start are whining in case of a conflict or war.
Also capability wise we have to think that what suits us best.

Rafale is clearly the last fighter we are going to buy. Future AMCA, and even MWF will carry a lot of things inspired from it. They are benching Rafale for the AMCA even, that it has to be a Rafale++.

On the part about numbers - see technological advantage or parity should be first goal and this gives exactly that. Even number wise if these deals go through we are going to be in a very comfortable zone. Today if you exclude Mig 21 and Jaguar, we are at around 14 sukhois, 6 mig29/mirage = 20.
We are surely going to do a great improvement here. 8 rafales, 6 tejas, 1 mig 29, and some intial squads mwf as well...... and a possibility of even increasing tejas mk1a production to a couple more.

IAF chief seems to open for another aircraft from his statement . May be just bargaining play it is.

Sukhoi picked it 250km's but it only picked it up because J20 did not probably had ram coatings done.
When it does not have the ram coatings on J20's rcs is 1m square.
Sukhoi's future will only become bright again after we make Astra MK2 and Astra 2 or else I view it going in a more of strike fighter role by the end of this decade. This time's pak encounter should open our eyes.
No doubt Sukhoi is a powerful beast, but the beast needs the best AESA radar, needs the best unmatched missiles and it needs a host of other technologies that have come of age to become the best again.

Russia have already offered the longer range missiles . SDFR join production is also going on. Astra isn't the criteria for Su (or Tejas) to be a success a benefit yes. A better engine and AESA radar with improved avionics will definitely.

Here I have doubt on Chinese stealth that's why I said Su might be enough or we will need a fifth gen .

Maybe or maybe not. What would have been the complications we dont know.
But when it has to be comparable in every way to Tejas only, the why to even consider them.

Because In 2008 around we could have gained a lot and fill up our number .

( Cost effective jet with advantage over PAF which can aide in Tejas Dev too ) that was the reason.

Now It's of not much use. That's what I said to sancho too on twitter . But it is still a beauty with all the bang for its bucks.

F 18 have better chances now if it's not Rafale. Specially if IN goes for F 18 .

Haha. Maybe he will become happy seeing that.

Let him be. It never hurts to make someone smile lol

Maybe or maybe not. What would have been the complications we dont know.
But when it has to be comparable in every way to Tejas only, the why to even consider them.

The engines are similar . They had offered to replace it with Kaveri if that provide enough thrust. Rest can be managed HAL itself have experience in it. Anyway as said ship has sailed.

Someone pick on Sancho He is active on twitter troll him .

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

No we cannot. Engine replacement is not the same as changing tyres. The entire network and sub-systems and avionics, software (mostly likely with no source-code access) etc. will have to be reconfigured and re-evaluated and it'll be a costly and tedious affair to get the manufacturer aboard for all the testing and validation that would follow.

Tejas being our system allows us much greater control and leverage over these changes. Also if we do replace the engine on Tejas, we'll be doing so with a desi engine. Mating a self-owned system with another self-owned system will be far easier than attempting to mate a foreign system with our powerplant.

Plus, it's not just the engine on Gripen, a lot of other key tech also comes from non-Swedish entities. How much tech transfer can they assure?

Ultimately PAF will fly a couple of squadrons of the Gripen. I wonder if PAF will get or try to get Meteor and Scalp.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[mayfair]

Ultimately PAF will fly a couple of squadrons of the Gripen. I wonder if PAF will get or try to get Meteor and Scalp.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

If they can afford it they'll go for F-16s, Gripen is not that cheaper. Not that beggars can afford it anyway. They'll wait for a largesse and the only country willing to do that will be the US.

 

[BON PLAN]

I was talking to Sancho. He used to support Rafale before if my memory serve correct. But after the cost escalation doesn't and will rather see Gripen.

How do you rate Gripen vs Rafale ?

Specifically in air defense role and to strike against Pakistan

How can they help our industry they have a good record actually to deliver what they promise.

And if we really need it over Tejas ?

Also French helping with Kaveri engine reasoning is dying out too.

IAF veterans and even our new IAF boss hinted at an aircraft other than Rafale is fine too and may come.

What do you think of MMRCA 2 now are going to get Gripen ? I would have loved that in 2008 around not convinced now.

And if F 18 can make a surprise entry ?

Tedious drama should have sorted out by now.

the best answer is the swiss eval leaks :

Note that the Rafale was evaluated with PESA radar.... Now it has, for 7 years, an AESA radar.

Gripen E is not IOC, and far from being FOC. The status of the radar is not known (as for Eurofighter Captor E, always far late, and without any technical field tests).
And Gripen E remain a light fighter.

 

[assassin162]

Russia have already offered the longer range missiles . SDFR join production is also going on. Astra isn't the criteria for Su (or Tejas) to be a success a benefit yes. A better engine and AESA radar with improved avionics will definitely.

The longer range is an export version of R77-1. Which they are offering when India was all ready to go for Derby ER at any cost. Their best in this category of BVRAAM's is K77M. Can you confirm if they are are offering this?

 

[BON PLAN]

We must remember in terms of TOT companies like SAAB are best bet specially in 2000 when they didn't had much order for export we could have twisted them better. Looks at Bofors we got the full TOT for it in 80s . Only if we would have been a little smart today tons of Bofors and it's improvement would be part of army already with no import .

And acquisition cost of initial batch for 140 mn isn't the way cost is distributed . For 126 -200 jets it wouod have saved us billions of dollar compared to Rafale.

You can't only compare the price !
Compare the range, the load, the weapon system, the disponibility.

 

[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN @Armand2REP . When is Nueron planned for induction ? or will it be just a Tech demonstrator only ? can it act like wingman for Rafale ?

View attachment 39395

Never.
It's just a technical demonstrator. The neuron range and load are too small.
It was a program usefull to show the mastery of stealth by Dassault, and how it is possible to work together with efficiency in Europe (contrary to the Eurofighter association).

 

[BON PLAN]

Ultimately PAF will fly a couple of squadrons of the Gripen. I wonder if PAF will get or try to get Meteor and Scalp.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

We are perfectly aware that any weapon sells to Pak will ended in chinese hands.... So no way.

 

[Flying Dagger]

The longer range is an export version of R77-1. Which they are offering when India was all ready to go for Derby ER at any cost. Their best in this category of BVRAAM's is K77M. Can you confirm if they are are offering this?

Yes both are on offer. R 77 -1 was offered before too but some of its parts were manufactured in Ukraine. Their fallout in 2014 delayed the process. But will be integrated now.

Cost negotiation are on work we will get it too.

 

[mayfair]

Since IAF and our Sancho is claiming we have to go for MMRCA 2 and Tejas isnt good enough..

Two different programmes all together. Tejas is light fighter, MRCA2 will be medium category. SE fighter programme was what was threatening Tejas.

MRCA2 will be a smokescreen, nothing will come out of it.

IAF has clearly spoken their support for AMCA- No import of 5-gen. We cannot realise AMCA in good time without fully maturing Tejas and MWF first.

Sancho has been shilling for either Typhoon and Gripen. Not sure what they offer over Rafale in terms of cost, technology or abilities. Gripen certainly doesn't.

 

[captscooby81]

Funnily German's itself planning for F-18 to replace the Tornado for nuclear delivery .Not the Eurofighter Typhoon

 

[assassin162]

A very basic thing that a lot of us dont take into account is only and only Rafale-Meteor combo can take on J20-PL15 combo atleast till the time Tejas 2 or Tejas SFDR comes of age and even beyond that.

Astra 2 or Astra SFDR i meant.

 

[BON PLAN]

Funnily German's itself planning for F-18 to replace the Tornado for nuclear delivery .Not the Eurofighter Typhoon

The game remains open.
One point is the ability to carry the B61 nuclear free fall bomb. SH18 have or will have soon this ability. for EF it's not on the agenda (and USA will do all the possible to lenght this point...).
But honnestly, a free fall bomb when the most probable opponent is S400 and nearly S500 equipped.... it's BS.

 

[Aham Brahmasmi]

Guess the fighter jet ??
Clue : Location is Bengaluru.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Two different programmes all together. Tejas is light fighter, MRCA2 will be medium category. SE fighter programme was what was threatening Tejas.

MRCA2 will be a smokescreen, nothing will come out of it.

IAF has clearly spoken their support for AMCA- No import of 5-gen. We cannot realise AMCA in good time without fully maturing Tejas and MWF first.

Sancho has been shilling for either Typhoon and Gripen. Not sure what they offer over Rafale in terms of cost, technology or abilities. Gripen certainly doesn't.

Single engine and twin engine isn't the requirement nor light or medium was.

We needed a capable jet to fill the squadron and provide tech edge against PAF. Infact IAF had been asking for Mirage 2000 since 80s . After Kargil too they were happy to get 126-240 Mirage 2000 . If we had taken that route That would have been our main Fighter today .

In short if Tejas is a formidable jet and able to perform most of the mission then there wouldn't be any need for mmrca2 couple more squadron of Rafale and bulk production of Tejas will do..

 

[mayfair]

Single engine and twin engine isn't the requirement nor light or medium was.

Single engine Mirage 2000 and F-16 are in a different weight class to Tejas

In short if Tejas is a formidable jet and able to perform most of the mission then there wouldn't be any need for mmrca2 couple more squadron of Rafale and bulk production of Tejas will do..

Tejas IS a formidable jet, IAF and pilots swear by it and it must and will be inducted in large numbers.

Tejas is viewed as a Mig 21 replacement. Original and latest MRCA were replacements for Mig 27s, Jaguars etc.

 

[Flying Dagger]

View attachment 39403 Guess the fighter jet ??
Clue : Location is Bengaluru.

Is it Sukhoi 30 MKI or Mig 29 ???