Know Your 'Rafale'

[Megalomaniac]

might be the most expensive fighter ever, more than twice the price of F35. Is there any kickback in the deal?:bounce: anyways, it's a good aircraft. :biggrin2:

We will any day buy a Rafale instead of F-35. It doesn't matter if it costs 80 million or 60million or 50 million dollar.

 

[Flying Dagger]

might be the most expensive fighter ever, more than twice the price of F35. Is there any kickback in the deal?:bounce: anyways, it's a good aircraft. :biggrin2:

Nothing can match the Chinese junk when it comes to price.

 

[smooth manifold]

Nothing can match the Chinese junk when it comes to price.

so there's no kickback:biggrin2:

 

[Josh Baker]

Does our rafales have a wide area display in cockpit ?

 

[Flying Dagger]

Clear your mind first or no point answering. The relationship is about buying weapons, not about getting married. This emotional whining means little. Good night.

It is you who is whining like a little cry baby.

 

[ForigenSanghi]

India buys US products not as a charity case to US but because it is beneficial to India. Ask your forces about the quality, after sales support and technology of US products purchased so far and you will know.
US remains the number one arms supplier in world for a reason. Not tapping in obviously superior yet cheaper US products is a loss of business to US manufacturing but it is also a strategic loss to India.

1) Weapons purchases are also a foreign policy tool for India. We use it to create a balance between Russia / France / US+Isreal. That is why their is no other country in the world which is friends with both US and Russia (maybe Germany then again they are using Gas Imports for this).

2) Its allows us to buy the best weapons systems till we develop our own. We can buy the fantastic S400 instead of the shitty patriot and the brilliant Apache instead of the crappy Mi28. No good reason to change this policy.

3) Rafale was the best available aircraft in MMRCA since US is not willing to sell the Jet it developed as Rafale's contemporary in the 90s. I am sure if the US offering was the best of the lot it would get selected atleast as L1. IAF is not an ideological force which would shut out US jets, if F16 was anywhere near the desired quality it would have qualified as L1 alongside Rafale and Typhoon.

4) Just to reiterate point 3. We will most likely soon become the first export destination of the Advanced Hornets for use on IAC1 since it is the best fit and the most price competitive option available.

On the one side you say that Indians don't have any reason to be anti-US (which I agree) and on the other hand you say that GoI and IAF are ideologically rejecting the US made jets. Confused much?

 

[ForigenSanghi]

might be the most expensive fighter ever, more than twice the price of F35. Is there any kickback in the deal?:bounce: anyways, it's a good aircraft. :biggrin2:

​

30 characters tyranny is still better than xitlers tyranny.

 

[Flying Dagger]

so there's no kickback:biggrin2:

Yup your ass my kick... Kickback

Done with your boring chutzpah ?

 

[BON PLAN]

Haha, here comes a wanna be french who is not even french. Your personal attacks are poor attempt at not having a good comeback. Stop pretending to be french.. Indians don’t need to hate Americans- that includes you.

I'm french. That's all.
And it's not because I sometimes use a VPN with worldwide virtual locations that I'm not french.

But on the contrary, you are a pure US average citizen ! absolutely no doubt.

 

[BON PLAN]

Une bombe française à 360.000 euros pièce - Sagem conteste (actualisé)
Jean-Dominique Merchet27 août 2010
Le quotidien économique La Tribune révèle dans son édition de mercredi les conclusions du rapport 2010 du Comité des prix de revient des frabrications d’armement (CPRA), un organisme officiel. On y apprend notamment que le coût total pour l’Etat, y compris le développement, de l’AASM (Armement Air Sol Modulaire), qui est une bombe guidée fabriquée par Sagem, s’éleve à 846 millions d’euros. On y apprend aussi que les commandes portent sur 2348 «kits». Une simple division permet alors de constater que le prix unitaire de cet armement est de 351.158 euros. Pas donnée, la frappe aérienne contre des talibans en sandales se déplaçant en mobylette...

Suite à la parution de ce post, l’industriel Sagem conteste le chiffre unitaire donné ci-dessus. «Le prix réel est considérablement inférieur» assure l’industriel, sans le communiquer pour des raisons commerciales.

Sagem conteste d’abord le chiffre de 2348 «kits» donnés par La Tribune sur la base du rapport du CPRA. L’industriel parle d’une cible, pour la France, de 4148 AASM - ce qui change en effet la donne. (Pour l’heure, seules deux commandes fermes ont été passées : 744 et 680 «kits»). Le prix final pour le contribuable français, développement compris, serait dans ce cas d’environ 200.000 euros, sachant que SAGEM estime le coût final lègèrement inférieur au 846 millions avancés par le CPRA.

Le AASM a déja été vendu au Maroc et d’autres prospects sont en cours, avec la vente du Rafale à l’étranger. «Le prix annoncé [sur le blog] est aberrant par rapport à celui du marché» poursuit Sagem. C’est en effet là que la bât blesse.

L’essentiel du coût du développement d’un système d’armes est pris en charge par le contribuable français, même si une part du développement est intégrée dans le prix de vente à l’export. On parle de deux choses différentes : d’un côté, le coût supporté par le contribuable français pour que les forces armées disposent d’un armement sophistiqué dans leur arsenal, de l’autre, le prix des contrats à l’export.

Sagem constate par ailleurs que le coût du programme ait été maîtrisé, avec une dérive de seulement 5% par rapport aux prévisions initiales.

Grand French plan to mooch Indians.

1. Obsolete Mirage upgrade package at $40 million per plane. No AESA with that much money!!
2. AASM: €200,000 per unit with questionable benefits. JDAM is $25,000
3. Charging India for putting helmet mounted display on Rafale!
4. Charging India for translating French operation manuals to English!
5. Per hour cost in excess of $ 20,000. Almost 3 times F-16 and 4 times that of Gripen.
6. No or limited integration with widely available and cheaper NATO weapons and sensors.
7. Technology curve lagging behind US, means serious deficiencies when really needed.

Time for India to stop drinking french Kool Aid.

2010..... You are always late my poor average american.

AASM: €200,000 per unit : since Safran studied a block 4 version, less expensive.
3. Charging India for putting helmet mounted display on Rafale! False : the helmet accomodation was studied for Qatar....
5. Per hour cost in excess of $ 20,000. Almost 3 times F-16 and 4 times that of Gripen. What plane? Source ?
6. No or limited integration with widely available and cheaper NATO weapons and sensors. Hummm..... what about GBU ?
7. Technology curve lagging behind US, means serious deficiencies when really needed. Rafale is the sole european jet to have an operationnal PESA, then AESA inboard radar. A world class electronic support system able to mystify S300 (when a dedicated F16CJ can't) etc....

Always the same thing with these average americans : they think they are the best of the world...

 

[BON PLAN]

Meanwhile Indians are stuck with obsolete Mirage upgrade

Just for memory : the sole F16 shooted down in air to air combat was killed by a old gen greek Mirage 2000, with a old RDM radar and using a old Magic 2 missile (to compare with a brand new SH18 unable to shoot a old Su with a top of the class AIM9X !!!!).
modernised Mirage 2000 use a more modern radar (a mecanical one, the same tech that main US fleet of F16 and F15 use... ) and more modern AA missile.

 

[BON PLAN]

^^ I call BS on that. There's no way SAFRAN will transfer truly critical technologies to India.

This is meant for extracting more money and we'll be dim enough to take this at face value.

I think the M53 tech can be sold. It may be a great help for Kaveri.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

India in 90s bought mirage jets to counter American F-16 which Pakistan got free of cost in the first place. And we were Willing to push them against F-16 in 1999 war. Sukhoi deal in 1998 was for extra fun.

 

[BON PLAN]

3) Rafale was the best available aircraft in MMRCA since US is not willing to sell the Jet it developed as Rafale's contemporary in the 90s. I am sure if the US offering was the best of the lot it would get selected atleast as L1. IAF is not an ideological force which would shut out US jets, if F16 was anywhere near the desired quality it would have qualified as L1 alongside Rafale and Typhoon.

4) Just to reiterate point 3. We will most likely soon become the first export destination of the Advanced Hornets for use on IAC1 since it is the best fit and the most price competitive option available.

You forget the US strong weapons control...
Ask Egypt and UAE if they were totally free to use their F16 jets.... the answer is NO. So it's a big risk.

 

[BON PLAN]

.

.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Total engine requirement of india is around 3k-4k till 2050. Hence race will get more and more hot.

(assembly line = the same work we are doing with AL-31)

 

[Assassin 2.0]

TOT TO INDIA CAN BE A REALITY.


French aerospace company Safran, that manufactures engines for Rafale fighter jets, has expressed its willingness to help India develop its first indigenous fighter aircraft engine. A proposal was sent to the Defence and Development Research Organisation (DRDO) about this, Safran CEO Olivier Andries said on Wednesday while briefing Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on the company’s military and civil projects in India. “They are studying the proposal sent by us. We are willing to transfer the technology and this could be the way forward for the first indigenous fighter aircraft engine,” Andries told India Today TV. The Mirage fighter jets use M53 variant of the engine. “It will be a big boost for ‘Make in India’ if the proposal works out. It means India would be able to sell the engine to any country that uses Rafale,” said an Indian official. Defence Minister Rajnath Singh visited the Safran facility in Villaroche near Paris a day after receiving the first Rafale jet for the Indian Air Force. There he was given a presentation and did a tour of the facility on Indian interests. Sources said studies have also been done for the possibility of manufacturing an indigenous engine for Indian made Light Combat Aircraft Tejas. India and France expect further enhancement of their ties, especially in the arena of defence cooperation. “We will support the ‘Make in India’ policy. Let us look at the future. You didn’t just opt for a fighter but opted for enhancement of military partnership. We will do our best to meet your requirement,” French Defence Minister Florence Parly said after the induction of Rafale. The two defence ministers met for the second defence dialogue on Tuesday evening and reviewed the status of bilateral cooperation in the field, which is a key pillar of the India-France Strategic Partnership. “They also exchanged views on contemporary regional and international developments of mutual interest. Both sides discussed ways to further deepen defence-related official as well as operational level interactions. Both sides agreed to expand the scope and complexity of the existing regular bilateral joint exercises,” a defence ministry spokesman said. Recognising that India-France partnership in the Indian Ocean Region is crucial for preserving and promoting the common strategic and security interests, the two Ministers noted the continuing implementation of actions outlined in the “Joint Strategic Vision of India-France Cooperation in the Indian Ocean Region” (March 2018). The Ministers also reaffirmed the strong intention of the two sides to further deepen bilateral cooperation on counter-terrorism.

 

[ForigenSanghi]

You forget the US strong weapons control...
Ask Egypt and UAE if they were totally free to use their F16 jets.... the answer is NO. So it's a big risk.

The RafaleM (like the Mig29) will have trouble taking off from our ski-jump carrier with just 150KN afterburners. Not to mention the whole lot of rather limited fuel that will be wasted during take-off.
Also its wings don't fold so it will be a logistical nightmare for our compact carrier.

Advanced Hornet on the other hand will come with 140KN dry and 220KN afterburner thrust along with 6.5 tonnes of fuel including conformal fuel tanks. Hornets can also do buddy refuelling just like the Mig29k which again RafaleM can not.
Its wings will fold during taxi and hanger storage as well plus it will still be 20% cheaper than RafaleM.

Despite the US weapon controls, the RafaleM doesn't stand a chance against the Advanced Hornet for the naval MRCA. Hornet simply offers much more functionality than the RafaleM, not to mention the fact that the US wont deny integration of Israeli missiles and optronics like the French do.

 

[BON PLAN]

The RafaleM (like the Mig29) will have trouble taking off from our ski-jump carrier with just 150KN afterburners. Not to mention the whole lot of rather limited fuel that will be wasted during take-off.
Also its wings don't fold so it will be a logistical nightmare for our compact carrier.

Advanced Hornet on the other hand will come with 140KN dry and 220KN afterburner thrust along with 6.5 tonnes of fuel including conformal fuel tanks. Hornets can also do buddy refuelling just like the Mig29k which again RafaleM can not.
Its wings will fold during taxi and hanger storage as well plus it will still be 20% cheaper than RafaleM.

Despite the US weapon controls, the RafaleM doesn't stand a chance against the Advanced Hornet for the naval MRCA. Hornet simply offers much more functionality than the RafaleM, not to mention the fact that the US wont deny integration of Israeli missiles and optronics like the French do.

Rafale has the big asset to have close coupled canards, that increase the lift of the main wings. It's why it can fly with a full load of 1.5 x its empty weight and can land so slow than 115 knots. So don't worry for the ability to take off short.

some errors :
- Rafale also can received conformal tanks. Not needed by French air force and navy, but it's possible, and tested by Dassault in the beginning of the 2000's
- Yes Rafale can buddy refuel another plane. Currently used every day by french navy.
- The french are relictant to integrate israeli's goodies? strange.... The Rafale is accomodated to an israeli helmet, an israeli and a US laser pods, and next to come the israeli SPICE bomb.

Folding wings : OK, but put 2 Rafale side by side but on different axis and you will see it's very compact. And Rafale is 3m shorter than SH18 !

to end : A very recent swiss flight trials leak (confirmed in the french defense news paper DSI) explain that the agility of the SH18 is inferior to those of the legacy F18 .... It's a old and lazy cow. Rafale on this point is far superior. And it's AESA is on par with those of SH18, but need some more modes that are coming for India and in the F4 block.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Rafale has the big asset to have close coupled canards, that increase the lift of the main wings. It's why it can fly with a full load of 1.5 x its empty weight and can land so slow than 115 knots. So don't worry for the ability to take off short.
Rafale also can received conformal tanks. Not needed by French air force and navy, but it's possible, and tested by Dassault in the beginning of the 2000's
Yes Rafale can buddy refuel another plane. Currently used every day by french navy.
Folding wings : OK, but put 2 Rafale side by side but on different axis and it's very compact. And Rafale is 3m shorter !

My question is why French engines produce lesser amounts of thrust compared to Russian 145 KN engines?
So how french m-88 is much more advanced than it's counterparts?