Know Your 'Rafale'

[Indx TechStyle]

Your personal attacks are poor attempt at not having a good comeback.

This is called a personal attack.↓↓

Haha, here comes a wanna be french who is not even french.

Stop pretending to be french.. Indians don’t need to hate Americans- that includes you.

You most certainly don't even have a clue about what Indians think abou world.

 

[Wisemarko]

Une bombe française à 360.000 euros pièce - Sagem conteste (actualisé)
Jean-Dominique Merchet27 août 2010
Le quotidien économique La Tribune révèle dans son édition de mercredi les conclusions du rapport 2010 du Comité des prix de revient des frabrications d’armement (CPRA), un organisme officiel. On y apprend notamment que le coût total pour l’Etat, y compris le développement, de l’AASM (Armement Air Sol Modulaire), qui est une bombe guidée fabriquée par Sagem, s’éleve à 846 millions d’euros. On y apprend aussi que les commandes portent sur 2348 «kits». Une simple division permet alors de constater que le prix unitaire de cet armement est de 351.158 euros. Pas donnée, la frappe aérienne contre des talibans en sandales se déplaçant en mobylette...

Suite à la parution de ce post, l’industriel Sagem conteste le chiffre unitaire donné ci-dessus. «Le prix réel est considérablement inférieur» assure l’industriel, sans le communiquer pour des raisons commerciales.

Sagem conteste d’abord le chiffre de 2348 «kits» donnés par La Tribune sur la base du rapport du CPRA. L’industriel parle d’une cible, pour la France, de 4148 AASM - ce qui change en effet la donne. (Pour l’heure, seules deux commandes fermes ont été passées : 744 et 680 «kits»). Le prix final pour le contribuable français, développement compris, serait dans ce cas d’environ 200.000 euros, sachant que SAGEM estime le coût final lègèrement inférieur au 846 millions avancés par le CPRA.

Le AASM a déja été vendu au Maroc et d’autres prospects sont en cours, avec la vente du Rafale à l’étranger. «Le prix annoncé [sur le blog] est aberrant par rapport à celui du marché» poursuit Sagem. C’est en effet là que la bât blesse.

L’essentiel du coût du développement d’un système d’armes est pris en charge par le contribuable français, même si une part du développement est intégrée dans le prix de vente à l’export. On parle de deux choses différentes : d’un côté, le coût supporté par le contribuable français pour que les forces armées disposent d’un armement sophistiqué dans leur arsenal, de l’autre, le prix des contrats à l’export.

Sagem constate par ailleurs que le coût du programme ait été maîtrisé, avec une dérive de seulement 5% par rapport aux prévisions initiales.

Grand French plan to mooch Indians.

1. Obsolete Mirage upgrade package at $40 million per plane. No AESA with that much money!!
2. AASM: €200,000 per unit with questionable benefits. JDAM is $25,000
3. Charging India for putting helmet mounted display on Rafale!
4. Charging India for translating French operation manuals to English!
5. Per hour cost in excess of $ 20,000. Almost 3 times F-16 and 4 times that of Gripen.
6. No or limited integration with widely available and cheaper NATO weapons and sensors.
7. Technology curve lagging behind US, means serious deficiencies when really needed.

Time for India to stop drinking french Kool Aid.

 

[Wisemarko]

This is called a personal attack.↓↓


You most certainly don't even have a clue about what Indians think abou world.

I do know what Indian thinks about USA when they come here. And that’s enough.

 

[Wisemarko]

No we don't, but then the likes of Warren, Sanders, Kamala Harris, van Holen etc. are not really endearing themselves.

I agree. But most Americans dislike them as well. Their comments have no bearing on American foreign policy. Thanks

 

[Wisemarko]

View attachment 39227
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Nice way to say they didn’t have these features and made India pay for it. None of these are that unique to be not offered as standard on $100 million plus aircraft. Now using Indian money they developed it and will sell to others as well.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Nice way to say they didn’t have these features and made India pay for it. None of these are that unique to be not offered as standard on $100 million plus aircraft. Now using Indian money they developed it and will sell to others as well.

Well actually many of them are simply Israeli system mated with Rafale for us. But off course they do ask for more than what it is worth .

They are the only reliable option we had from the West world and they squeezed the most out of it.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

All i want is a IAF Rafale vs PAF.



Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I do know what Indian thinks about USA when they come here. And that’s enough.

But you yet went on commenting stupid.

 

[Anathema]

1. Obsolete Mirage upgrade package at $40 million per plane. No AESA with that much money!!
2. AASM: €200,000 per unit with questionable benefits. JDAM is $25,000
3. Charging India for putting helmet mounted display on Rafale!
4. Charging India for translating French operation manuals to English!
5. Per hour cost in excess of $ 20,000. Almost 3 times F-16 and 4 times that of Gripen.
6. No or limited integration with widely available and cheaper NATO weapons and sensors.
7. Technology curve lagging behind US, means serious deficiencies when really needed.

Time for India to stop drinking french Kool Aid.

Wisemarko - the argument at the end is very straightforward from Indian pov

1. Autonomy- french gives us autonomy which Khans can never do and will. Hence mission critical equipment will never come from Khans
2. History - French has a rich history of supporting Indians when chips are down. Khans - not so much.
3. Equipment - French are ready to give superior equipment to Indians - infact much superior than the ones that French AF is operating. Something that Khans will never ever do. They will always ensure that equipment supplied has limitations or they can exert control. It happens with closest allies.

Last point - Point 1, 2 and 3 indirectly influences money. French know it and they charge arm n leg for it - even though American equipment maybe comparatively cheaper. However it is a choice that India as a nation has made.
The only way to come out of this chokehold - is self sustenance !

 

[duhastmish]

Wisemarko - the argument at the end is very straightforward from Indian pov

1. Autonomy- french gives us autonomy which Khans can never do and will. Hence mission critical equipment will never come from Khans
2. History - French has a rich history of supporting Indians when chips are down. Khans - not so much.
3. Equipment - French are ready to give superior equipment to Indians - infact much superior than the ones that French AF is operating. Something that Khans will never ever do. They will always ensure that equipment supplied has limitations or they can exert control. It happens with closest allies.

Last point - Point 1, 2 and 3 indirectly influences money. French know it and they charge arm n leg for it - even though American equipment maybe comparatively cheaper. However it is a choice that India as a nation has made.
The only way to come out of this chokehold - is self sustenance !

Really french will provide us with superior product than they fly themselves ?
Isn't it stupid .

It's very much about machine but looking at unprofessionalism of iaf. Specially when they didn't know diffrence between our own chopper and enemy chopper. I have serious doubt about providing such expensive and advance system to them.
Let's see how they handle this. When we know how efficiently they drop even mki.

A better training and maintainance is required before we induct them.

 

[Shredder]

Really french will provide us with superior product than they fly themselves ?
Isn't it stupid .

It's very much about machine but looking at unprofessionalism of iaf. Specially when they didn't know diffrence between our own chopper and enemy chopper. I have serious doubt about providing such expensive and advance system to them.
Let's see how they handle this. When we know how efficiently they drop even mki.

A better training and maintainance is required before we induct them.

Weren't you the one who kept getting boned on the peedeef boards?

 

[Anathema]

Really french will provide us with superior product than they fly themselves ?
Isn't it stupid .
.

Yes they do ! You can listen to Rafale fighter podcasts where french fighter pilots speak. Its a known fact that French will provide superior machine to close a deal. They have no such compulsions.

 

[Anathema]

It's very much about machine but looking at unprofessionalism of iaf. Specially when they didn't know diffrence between our own chopper and enemy chopper. I have serious doubt about providing such expensive and advance system to them.
Let's see how they handle this. When we know how efficiently they drop even mki.
.

Huh ? Whats your point again? That IAF is not trained OR friendly casualties does not happen during fog of war ?

 

[Armand2REP]

Really french will provide us with superior product than they fly themselves ?
Isn't it stupid

It is stupid that the French government is in a budget crunch but it is common to order less than the top equipment on military products as it is cost prohibitive. For example on Rafale they have cheaped out on IRST and 2 way data links for Meteor which are both on export versions. They will not be added to French aircraft until F4 modernisation. Another example is La Fayette frigates, for export they come with Aster 30 but in Marine Nationale they are little more than oversized OPVs. Unlike the US military with its endless budgets the French State Order must be cost efficient and support an export policy to achieve economies of scale.

 

[Deathstar]

Huh ? Whats your point again? That IAF is not trained OR friendly casualties does not happen during fog of war ?

Tell him to just google friendly fires , he will be shock to see USAF involved in many such instances

 

[Wisemarko]

But you yet went on commenting stupid.

Wisemarko - the argument at the end is very straightforward from Indian pov

1. Autonomy- french gives us autonomy which Khans can never do and will. Hence mission critical equipment will never come from Khans
2. History - French has a rich history of supporting Indians when chips are down. Khans - not so much.
3. Equipment - French are ready to give superior equipment to Indians - infact much superior than the ones that French AF is operating. Something that Khans will never ever do. They will always ensure that equipment supplied has limitations or they can exert control. It happens with closest allies.

Last point - Point 1, 2 and 3 indirectly influences money. French know it and they charge arm n leg for it - even though American equipment maybe comparatively cheaper. However it is a choice that India as a nation has made.
The only way to come out of this chokehold - is self sustenance !

What independence do you really have when you have to depend on French for every spare part, service, training etc?

US weapons are used in whatever form their customers want. (sad but true) Look at Saudis in Yemen and you will understand what “only on-paper” restrictions mean.

By paying for substandard, obsolete and overpriced French stuff, you compromise your national security. How does that work well for “independence”?

To counter Rafale, all Pakistanis (who I don’t like) have to do is upgrade their F-16 to current standard with SABR AESA and AIM-120D. That would cost them less than $1 billion. Meanwhile Indians are stuck with obsolete Mirage upgrade and unaffordable Rafale.

I am glad that there is realization in India that French are sucking the daylight out of Indians in name of independence. Scorpene, Mirage and Rafale contracts have one thing in common- they all cost way more than they should.

I think India can become in defense industry what China has become in consumer goods in next 10 years if it demands full local production with involvement of private industry. Only country that will do that for India is US, all others will keep you mooching.

 

[Armand2REP]

Only country that will do that for India is US.

Just like you are there for the Kurds?

 

[Assassin 2.0]

To counter Rafale, all Pakistanis (who I don’t like) have to do is upgrade their F-16 to current standard with SABR AESA and AIM-120D. That would cost them less than $1 billion. Meanwhile Indians are stuck with obsolete Mirage upgrade and unaffordable Rafale.

You should try that.
In the end Pakistan will bring shame to American weapon (at least history shows that) . Rafale was chosen above F-21 for your kind information.
F-21 which is shit cost more than rafale. Why are we even talking about American jets? When the fact is they will not be coming to india.
Those 1 billion updates to pakis jet will make sure Americans lose billion $ weapons sale to india.

India needs strategic influence on certain nations to protect our national interests paying serval millions extra doesn't effect much.
Oh US will give india jet engine technology? Lamo never these technologies we have to develop on our own. We need to find what best we can get from US/France /Russia/Israel. That's why we run big tender to put pressure on others for negotiations and get the best offers.

I don't see any tot which we are getting from Americans after buying billions worth of Defence equipments? Just some pathetic small deals is all we get tiny export orders. We have huge market in home leave export if we can build things for ourselves that will be best but no one gives technology.

We are importing engines for our naval boats from US for a long time now i cannot see any technology transfer? Even a joint collaboration with American and Indian companies to produce them in india.

Stop making points which are not part of your government policy.
End of the story.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

What independence do you really have when you have to depend on French for every spare part, service, training etc?

This is called purchase in fly away condition, purpose of which is to acquire the weapon as soon as possible and nothing else. Independence will be determined when India will locally produce Rafales after MMRCA 2.

US weapons are used in whatever form their customers want.

Not in case of India......

India needs strategic influence on certain nations to protect our national interests paying serval millions extra doesn't effect much.

The only way to protect India & its interests first is to become self reliant. India has seriously been trying to achieve same by R&D and buying IP abroad what it can't make through research in meantime.

Paying a few extra millions for getting from countries that will probably give or India hopes so. India doesn't go after and pay nations who have rejected outrightly.

To counter Rafale, all Pakistanis (who I don’t like) have to do is upgrade their F-16 to current standard with SABR AESA and AIM-120D. That would cost them less than $1 billion. Meanwhile Indians are stuck with obsolete Mirage upgrade and unaffordable Rafale.

Mirages will be replaced very soon. The upgrade is to sustain them till the AD in development arrives.

As for F-16 upgrade to counter Rafale, ghanta. F-16 is a Mirage like bird that doesn't even meet modern purchase standards of IAF.

By paying for substandard, obsolete and overpriced French stuff, you compromise your national security. How does that work well for “independence”?

In no way obsolete in terms of technology.
Unlike Russian ones, French stuff has never disappointed India in performance. They make it costly, smaller in numbers but they make masterpieces in their every attempt.

I am glad that there is realization in India that French are sucking the daylight out of Indians in name of independence.

No, this realization is about Russians who took away too much during negotiations, delayed defense procurements and threatened cancellation if don't agree to their terms (ToT money is gone too).

French stuff has a relatively positive history. From Indian space rockets to design of helicopter, jets and turboshaft engines.

I think India can become in defense industry what China has become in consumer goods in next 10 years if it demands full local production with involvement of private industry.

Why India should be a logistics factory for NATO as per their standards instead of doing for own strategic weapons?

Only country that will do that for India is US, all others will keep you mooching.

If US was to do anything what India demands, Indian government would have approached long ago. They have even stopped asking US for it. It's pretty self explanatory who's a smooching country. Why write same stupid thing again?
US just is offering & wants to produce American spares in Indian private defense factories (which most certainly are expanding regardless of US), India is asking for technology where owning of IP may result into arrival of a cheaper Indian counterpart that could replace original one.

That's enough to close the case. Spares for American logistics aren't something India doesn't already make or need direly.

 

[Wisemarko]

Just like you are there for the Kurds?

Don’t mix politics with technology.