Know Your 'Rafale'

Armand2REP

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Your knowledge is limited in wine as well. On average, French wine is cheaper than US wine. The Grand Crus command high price but other French wine cannot. This compared to average US wine which sells for much higher price. The reason is that US wine made with modern tech and less archaic restrictions, is better quality.
The top end Napa beats French wine in every blind tasting, including done by French “experts”.
Read more here and learn:
https://frenchly.us/why-is-wine-so-cheap-in-france/
Who cares what it sells for in France. Two different distributions and tax systems don't correlate to the US market. French wine sold in the US is considered a luxury item where California wine is considered gutter wine sold to winos at the convenience store. Using Mexican slave labour to pick and process the grapes doesn't give it a very good reputation around the world.
 

Wisemarko

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Who cares what it sells for in France. Two different distributions and tax systems don't correlate to the US market. French wine sold in the US is considered a luxury item where California wine is considered gutter wine sold to winos at the convenience store. Using Mexican slave labour to pick and process the grapes doesn't give it a very good reputation around the world.
Who cares what a so called French who knows nothing about wine thinks? World buys Napa wines at a premium and we are all happy.

The average price of a bottle of wine from France in the U.S. is $12.71. (Source: Wine Insider). It cannot beat our local wines in quality.
 

Armand2REP

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Who cares what a so called French who knows nothing about wine thinks? World buys Napa wines at a premium and we are all happy.

The average price of a bottle of wine from France in the U.S. is $12.71. (Source: Wine Insider). It cannot beat our local wines in quality.
The US wine exports are nothing compared to France... like literally nothing. According to Wine Insider the average price of French wine in the US is $60. Get over it... the US will not beat France on wine.
 

Wisemarko

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The US wine exports are nothing compared to France... like literally nothing. According to Wine Insider the average price of French wine in the US is $60. Get over it... the US will not beat France on wine.
Made up your native country and now making up wine prices.. priceless
 

Armand2REP

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Made up your native country and now making up wine prices.. priceless
At least my country isn't run by Big Tobacco companies that ban ejuice that kills one person and still sells cigarettes that kill millions.
 

Wisemarko

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At least my country isn't run by Big Tobacco companies that ban ejuice that kills one person and still sells cigarettes that kill millions.
Lol .. more ignorance.
Per capita number of cigarettes smoking in
France- 1089
USA- 1016
“In France, the smoking epidemic began later than in the United States. For example, the number of cigarettes sold per adult per day peaked in the United States in 1961, while it peaked considerably later in France in 1985. As a result, smoking prevalence is higher today in France (31%) than the United States (16%).
Read more: http://www.niussp.org/article/smoking-inequalities-in-france-and-the-united-states/
 

BON PLAN

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The average price of a bottle of wine from France in the U.S. is $12.71. (Source: Wine Insider). It cannot beat our local wines in quality.
so it's far far from being high quality french wines. In France for a nice Bordeaux it cost in the 20 euros mini. A very good one in the 50€. And it depends of the year.
It remain possible to find nice wines at a very small price, but it's harder and harder.
French wines may be very different from one year to another. The US, australian, chilian... wines are more constant. But some year the french wines are jewels (1995,1996, 2005, 2010...)
 
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Immanuel

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No one is friend there is nothing like friends in this world. Only friend of india is bhutan. And Mauritius and Israel but no one else. Be practical.
Everyone have just gains india will think how much to milk us they will think the same.
No one is friend. No one.
Everyone thing is for interest.
If we would have ever thought Americans or xyz as a friend then we would have allowed them to build a military base and place there missiles. But it's not going to happen. For me there is only one thing national interest.

(India is quite proud of their nonaligned policy status. They view this discussion about the AS-400 as a policy issue and not a technical tactical and a technical one. So - US-indo pacific command chief.)
You misunderstand what I am saying, just because we buy American equipment doesn't make us stooges to their will. I have never said we shouldn't buy from France or Russia.

IAF buying the C-17, C-130J, Apache Block 3, Chinooks, soon NASAMS-2. IA the M-777, IN the MH-64R along with the P-8I were never transactional and certainly not some quid pro quo. These were contracts given out based on strategic and tactical needs. Pure and Simple. IAF felt a long need for strategic airlifter (C-17 at that time was the only proven, reliable and heavy duty airlifter that could carry shot tons of weight out to far flung corners of the country, thus helping in rapid mobility). Chinooks (won a competitive tender), C-130Js full-fill a key role of maintaining some of the most important strategic locations. Rapid mobility was one of the key lessons learned from Op Parakram. M777 will rain down destruction on the front line specially with the New mountain corps. P-8I was acquired as replacement for the Tu-142M for long range recon, anti sub and anti ship capabilities. These are platforms meant to support a war effort and no one including the US will stop us from using these platforms. These are guarantees the forces have, if you really think India is going to pay out billions and won't be able to use this kit in a war, then you have little faith in the services or the MOD or PMO.

You can't call Israel a friend and then vote against them with Unwashed Abduls (Palestinians and Iranians). Do mean to say Russia isn't our friend or even France? Off course, they are our friends, we have had cordials relations with them for decades. US just happens to be the newest friend on the block. Israel gets existential help from the US and have deep strategic friendship. Which means, we will have common friends. We can agree on many things while not agreeing on others.

There is an old saying 'trust but Verify' that has always been the attitude of the Services when it comes to such deals whether it be with US, France, Russia or Israel. All deals in the past be it with France, Russia or US have had issues and pain points. Some have a taken several years to fix. The Mig-21s, 23s, 27s, 25s, 29s, MKI, T-90 all deals had issues including TOT, spares availability, quality, etc. Plenty of issues with Scorpene deal. Jaguars too had many issues early on. Mirages were better deals because they were more of less off the shelf purchases. The lessons so far is that while TOT is nice to have, the more complex the deal the more complex the execution and the more difficult it becomes to have reliable capability on the ground. Between crony capitalists, corrupt babudom and inefficient MOD/PSUs the forces end up operating equipment that is decades out of date.

However, so far the US products have shown the good availability, reliability among our fleet of C-130Js, C-17s, P-8I. Due to the vast scale of US MIC, our forces benefit with decent after sales. While open points remain for offset obligations, these are being resolved on a case by case basis. MOD or the forces have taken a slow and sure approach towards buying US equipment. It took several years of work on the ground to establish a lot of things. We didn't rush to sign any agreements, including CISMOA, BECA, LSA etc. These were done after careful and close negotiations. The US relations will stabilize and be enhanced further. They have shown keen interest in the SSBN program, so instead of 2 we get 3 competitors. I am open for open competition and may the best deal win.

For MRCA both EF and Rafale were the finalists and they were clearly better, MRCA-2 is a waste of time, Rafale should be acquired atleast 5 sqds ideally off the shelf with not too much dire need for TOT, as long as the aircraft can be reliably maintain and operated with critical spares being made in India. Same goes for Scorpenes, we only a couple of years ago ironed out all the TOT related issues and the line can be kept going by ordered another 6. P-75 is another waste of time


https://www.business-standard.com/a...mos-for-defence-dr-bhamre-119021200361_1.html

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...y-along-china-border/articleshow/71108992.cms

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...g-nuclear-submarines/articleshow/49131287.cms

Just as we went ahead with S-400 and we can manage US through talks. A lot of background discussion keeps happening everyday and if you believe that there isn't a huge amount of time and effort being put to negotiate deals, terms, agreements with all our major trading partners including US, France, Russia, etc then you are being very naïve.

Even signing of COMCASA or any other agreement doesn't automatically mean we will blindly put specialized US kit of all US platforms, nor should we.

We could avoid all this nonsense and just buy Indian and/or export Indian. Actually we don't need Rafale or SH for IN, if LCA mk-2 Navy can be delivered by 2027 and we think forward and already work on AMCA-Navy for 2030 and beyond.
 

BON PLAN

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if LCA mk-2 Navy can be delivered by 2027
Not in the same league ! N LCA remain a light plane. Usefull probably, as Super Etendard was in french navy, but you need a heavier, longer range, heavier load plane. Maybe in parallel.
 

Immanuel

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Not in the same league ! N LCA remain a light plane. Usefull probably, as Super Etendard was in french navy, but you need a heavier, longer range, heavier load plane. Maybe in parallel.
Sure, but it's made in India, but it would be cheaper and we can buy more of them. Moreover, we would have things like folding wings which would make it easier to operate from all of our carriers. The AMCA-N would full-fill the long range, twin engine requirement.
 

WolfPack86

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Government should buy another 36 Rafale and cancel MMRCA contest. Indian private companies should build different parts of Rafale. 72 Rafale is enough. IAF should buy 200 Tejas MK 1A.
 

BON PLAN

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Sure, but it's made in India, but it would be cheaper and we can buy more of them. Moreover, we would have things like folding wings which would make it easier to operate from all of our carriers. The AMCA-N would full-fill the long range, twin engine requirement.
Sure.
But AMCA is far from the first flight, not to speak of N AMCA...
 

dude00720

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The Amrikis are just pissed off, since, they know, Feb27 destroyed all chances of the American planes in next MMRCA. That rankles. No wonder, they are derailing the thread.. Guys, talk to pakistanis and find out, how you lost a F-16. Why go crazy on wines, cars etc. This is an aircraft thread.

Normal American businesses dont behave like this. We work and negotiate. Arrogance is normally not there. It is only in these defence circles that, they bring all kinds of stupid rules into the equation, with arrogance as a bonus.
 

BON PLAN

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Government should buy another 36 Rafale and cancel MMRCA contest. Indian private companies should build different parts of Rafale. 72 Rafale is enough. IAF should buy 200 Tejas MK 1A.
For years I say that the Indian final Rafale purchase will be between 72 and 150.
72 is a very minimum so as to avoid the small fleet effect you know with M2000 and Mig29 (at the Indian scale. Not the same thing for Switzerland or Quatar).
more than 150 is for me unlikely. Because it's a french product (France is only the 5 or 6th world economy), because Rafale is effective but not cheap, because India will produce its own fighters in a more or less near futur.
 

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