Know Your 'Rafale'

BON PLAN

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I just don't appreciate your one sided bashing of anything that isn't French.
I'm a proud French (YES, FRENCH @Wisemarko ).
You will never read me saying that french cars are all marvellous, or french train company is so nice or ...

But please, don't write me that US wines are all better than french ones, or that F16 remains better than Rafale. Please no.
 

IndianHawk

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It’s not name calling

He is as French as your imagination.
Yes, US is terrible defense partner: that’s why all US partner nations have achieved tremendous growth in defense sector.
Korea made F-50 (all US tech), Taiwan made Ching Kuo (almost all US tech) and now F-35 has multinational partnerships.

Protecting IP and developing local defense industry are two different things. It looks like many on this forum think stealing IP of other countries works out well - it doesn’t in long run. India has great access to lot of technology today- forget about the past. Use it to establish long term partnerships.

Also, one can have a world class defense industry with co-operation with tech transfer over time. Tats and other Indian companies are having a great time with US companies and this is just a beginning. Just MRO itself is worth billions and a low hanging fruit.
All US partners are much behind in technology than independent nations like France or Russia.

USA denied tech for kf-x program. And help to build a ligth trainer fa50 is really not something to brag about.

Korean's have much more advanced submarine program thanks to German tech .

Technology transfer under contract is not stealing IP. You are an idiot to draw that analogy.

USA space and aerospace industry advanced with German tech transfer after ww2. ( Or was that IP stealing).

If USA can't compete on french on tech transfer than it should get out of competition. No point crying about it .
 

ForigenSanghi

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It’s not name calling

He is as French as your imagination.
Yes, US is terrible defense partner: that’s why all US partner nations have achieved tremendous growth in defense sector.
Korea made F-50 (all US tech), Taiwan made Ching Kuo (almost all US tech) and now F-35 has multinational partnerships.

Protecting IP and developing local defense industry are two different things. It looks like many on this forum think stealing IP of other countries works out well - it doesn’t in long run. India has great access to lot of technology today- forget about the past. Use it to establish long term partnerships.

Also, one can have a world class defense industry with co-operation with tech transfer over time. Tats and other Indian companies are having a great time with US companies and this is just a beginning. Just MRO itself is worth billions and a low hanging fruit.
No one on this thread has mentioned anything about nicking IP from imported stuff. Now you're just making up stuff.

I don't know what world are you living in but US does not provide any support for developing the industry. Not just that, it also does not sell its frontline tech to the closest of its allies. It flat out refused sale of THAAD to Turkey, Saudi etc... India and Turkey were both interested in buying Patriot but again US said no. India (unlike Turkey) was not even looking for any ToT but still no.

As for FA50 like partnerships. The support was provided only when Korea had decided to create a light fighter regardless of US support availability. Even there, the US ensured that FA50 does not compete with any of fighter jet classes that US is selling. The biggest problem with this approach though is that US knows the ins and outs of the aircraft now and it can always use this information as leverage against Korea.

India will never get willingly into such a position of subservience to the US. Its obvious to everyone but the US just doesn't seem to get it that India is not going to be another britain or Japan. The sooner the US deep state sheds this delusion the sooner it would be able to call India an ally. The patronising attitude of the state dept and the congress though will ensure that this will not happen anytime soon.

Just out of curiosity... Are you Indian American or Someother type of American?
 

Indx TechStyle

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He is as French as your imagination.
He has been here for years & we know him better. Any non-Indian too can be critic of US on DFI.
Yes, US is terrible defense partner: that’s why all US partner nations have achieved tremendous growth in defense sector.
Which tremendous growth? I don't see them making their own weapons. How many of them have committed their indigenous projects after gaining knowhow?

How much of strategic weapons they have? And even how of much of hold of strategic weapons they possess they have?
They are rather extended defense colonies of USA who are mobilized at American will and will perish along with American decline.
Protecting IP and developing local defense industry are two different things.
Developing defense industry & making SUPPLY CHAINS are different things as well.
Americans make supply chains of their weapons or sometimes to kill others' projects like BAE Replica. No sort of development of defense capabilities and transferring TECHNOLOGY is involved.

USSR, PRC & Iran's relationships are examples where independent defense capabilities are developed for recipient. For record, not a single US ally would get access to that level.

India keeps gathering same kind of defense knowhow from world and is ready to pay for it. If it doesn't get from USA, it won't pay USA. The weapons for the sake of emergency only will be imported.
India has great access to lot of technology today
No we don't. We are allowed to even buy only of some of them. Americans don't move from "basic agreements" they want. India won't ever sign them as it wants an independent great power stature for itself in long term.

The technology you are giving us access to for "INDUSTRIES" is mostly now in India, just yet to get operationalized. The technology we asked for won't come.
forget about the past.
Things aren't much different now either.
Also, one can have a world class defense industry with co-operation with tech transfer over time.
Read the entire debate and stop spinning things around. Without sharing intellectual property, US isn't giving any real transfer of technology to India.
Tats and other Indian companies are having a great time with US companies and this is just a beginning.
They are having elsewhere too. India isn't only running supply chains of NATO's defense products, its own have a parallel double digit growth.
 

Immanuel

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He's a French, not Indian.
Moreover, cry harder F-16 & F-18 were actually never in competition in MMRCA.

Americans sell weapons to destroy local industries when they start to emerge, US only sells weapons, doesn't leak any IPR.
Well you can't really blame the US for sharing deep level IPR or technology, look what Russia got for ignoring such things, they ended up with their entire product line (from jets, subs, cruise missiles, ADS etc) copied, reverse engineered and sold (in direct competition to Russia) thanks to the Chinks.

F-16 and F-18 were in competition even during MRCA, they couldn't match the aerodynamic performance of the EF and Rafale (they also failed to take off from Leh with a meaningful payload without requiring some engine mods) in those days but as ACM Naik confirmed, the US during extensive trials demonstrated the best in avionics and weapons during the entire trial period.

EF and Rafale just happened to have scored more points in the nearly 700 test points (fair and square). At that time, Boeing and LM were more than willing to meet the 60% minimum TOT stipulated by the RFP, pending Congress Approval (that is their process). I believe, they would have provided that amount of technology in TOT anyways had they been chosen.

Funny how people forget while during MRCA 1, from day-1 Dassault was offering independence and Full tot, source codes etc but when further negotiations revealed (after declaration of it being L-1), such things have a much higher cost.

US sold fighters and weapons all over the world including having F-16 lines in Belgium, NL, Japan, This didn't prevent SAAB, Dassault, Eurofighter from evolving and in some cases surpassing what was being offered from the US certainly during MRCA-1 era. Even now, F-21 is not a good contender, F-18 Block 3 certainly for the IN is a great contender. IAF should stick to Rafale (anything else at this point would be a waste of currency)
 

Indx TechStyle

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Well you can't really blame the US for sharing deep level IPR or technology
No one is blaming or playing moral games here. US may be in pressure to protect its own dominance. So? Then what? Get from some other country.
F-16 and F-18 were in competition even during MRCA
I didn't mean literally not in competition. But we knew that they were fated to lose.

Opting for production of any foreign made medium plane is stupid for India right now.
 

Immanuel

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I'm a proud French (YES, FRENCH @Wisemarko ).
You will never read me saying that french cars are all marvellous, or french train company is so nice or ...

But please, don't write me that US wines are all better than french ones, or that F16 remains better than Rafale. Please no.
The Rafale is a better aircraft but the F-16 while not as good still has enough orders and long term business potential for LM for another 3-4 decades. Brand new F-16s continue to be sold and thousands will be upgraded for billions in contracts. Just the MLU contracts deals will in value surpass the entire deal value of Rafales sold over their life time. You seem to confuse that a better product doesn't always mean more sales.

I have personally tasted just as many bad French wines as I have tasted good Californian, South American heck even Asian wines. Let's see how that industry will cope with new tarrifs. France has no monopoly in that industry.
 

ForigenSanghi

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US sold fighters and weapons all over the world including having F-16 lines in Belgium, NL, Japan, This didn't prevent SAAB, Dassault, Eurofighter from evolving and in some cases surpassing what was being offered from the US certainly during MRCA-1 era. Even now, F-21 is not a good contender, F-18 Block 3 certainly for the IN is a great contender. IAF should stick to Rafale (anything else at this point would be a waste of currency)
Never knew that Advanced Hornet was being offered to the IN, always thought it was the SH being offered.
Is the Advanced Hornet being offered in MMRCA2 as well? I very much doubt that. Either way it will still not win. I think we will get Mig35 in MMRCA2 with another 2-3 sqdns of fly away Rafale.

No one is blaming or playing moral games here. US may be in pressure to protect its own dominance. So? Then what? Get from some other country.

I didn't mean literally not in competition. But we knew that they were fated to lose.

Opting for production of any foreign made medium plane is stupid for India right now.
Actually if Boeing is ready to deliver our order before the USN orders, we should buy the 57 Advanced Hornets right away (may be even more in the name of IAC-2). While our 2nd and 3rd carriers get ready, we can use them off of carrier like strips in Gujarat and Maharashtra just in case we want to do some PKMKB on urgent basis.
 

Assassin 2.0

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The Rafale is a better aircraft but the F-16 while not as good still has enough orders and long term business potential for LM for another 3-4 decades. Brand new F-16s continue to be sold and thousands will be upgraded for billions in contracts. Just the MLU contracts deals will in value surpass the entire deal value of Rafales sold over their life time. You seem to confuse that a better product doesn't always mean more sales.

I have personally tasted just as many bad French wines as I have tasted good Californian, South American heck even Asian wines. Let's see how that industry will cope with new tarrifs. France has no monopoly in that industry.
Do you have any data saying there will be more orders of F-16? When she is highest produced aircraft after Mig-21 spares are not a issue . Most of the nato allys are moving to 5th generation F-35. And there is no data available that tata - lm manufactured F-16 will be cheaper than American one.
F-16 is most expensive shit in mmrca 2.0 Costing whooping 24 billion.
GOI of india wants develop new strategic relationship with france.
Taking GOI behavior I'm pretty sure that jet will be rejected in test flight modules also iaf was not impressed by that flying duck.
Gets some facts.
France is also doing offsets which worth billions.
Shakti engine of HAL which powers 90% of our helicopters is build with collaboration with france.
RUSSIA is offering mig-35 with full tot.
The point was that guy was saying US will share its tot but the reality is they cannot even share anything. COMCASA, it purportedly allows India to procure specialised equipment for encrypted communication for US origin military platforms like C-17, C-130 and P-81s. The question is isn’t the vender expected to provide reliable communication equipment as per specifications if so demanded and contracted for? With India wanting to promote ‘Make in India’ andone of its major Public Sector Enterprise involved in manufacturing high technology communication equipment, what is wrong in procuring commercially available communication systems specially tailored to meet our requirements in these platforms? Communication interoperability between the militaries of India and US is redundant and undoubtedly compromises India’s communication security.

Despite these implications India signed these fundamental agreements signaling a very close partnership with the US startling the world. Has US shown any understanding of these compromises in its dealings with India?
 
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Armand2REP

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I have personally tasted just as many bad French wines as I have tasted good Californian, South American heck even Asian wines. Let's see how that industry will cope with new tarrifs. France has no monopoly in that industry.
French wine commands a far higher price than those from California. People who buy it are not going to be phased by a tariff. Regardless of your personal opinion of French wine, the market has determined it is the best.
 

Wisemarko

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French wine commands a far higher price than those from California. People who buy it are not going to be phased by a tariff. Regardless of your personal opinion of French wine, the market has determined it is the best.
Price: Does average French wine command more price than average American wine? Nope. Average Napa Cabernet costs 40-80% more than average Bordeaux.

Quality:
40 years ago, Calif. wines beat France and changed the world

RHONDA ABRAMS | SPECIAL FOR USA TODAY | 3:49 pm EDT August 31, 2016


Wine industry experts and influencers talk about the history and significance of the 1976 Judgment of Paris. Video courtesy of Stag's Leap Wine Cellars

It started as a small-business owner's publicity stunt. It created a small-business revolution. And it transformed the wine world, changing forever the quality and cost of the next glass of wine you’ll drink.


This year is the 40th anniversary of the "Judgment of Paris," the blind taste test that pitted the best French wines against the cream of California's crop. Confident that French wines had no competition, the most prestigious wine experts in France agreed to judge. The outcome: Top honors went to California wines, both red and white.


Seen in 1996, Jim Barrett, owner of California's Chateau Montelena, holds a bottle of the Chardonnay that won the Judgment of Paris wine tasting 40 years ago. Barrett's 1973 Chateau Montelena Chardonnay helped transform California's wine industry into the powerhouse it is today. Barrett died in 2013 at the age of 86.
1996 PHOTO BY ERIC RISBERG, AP
The wine world was shocked. Worldwide, opportunities opened up for small, entrepreneurial winemakers. all thanks to a small business owner's big idea.


Steven Spurrier owned a small, struggling wine shop in Paris. His employee, Californian Patricia Gallagher, suggested he carry a number of wines from the nascent California wine industry. Being British, Spurrier wasn’t exactly accepted by the insular French wine world. He figured the Bicentennial of the American Revolution — 1976 — was a good “hook” to leverage publicity for his store.

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“Half a century ago, (the wine industry in California) was struggling to get by, but the Paris tasting of 1976 changed that forever,” said Gloria Duffy, president and CEO of the Commonwealth Club of California, which is hosting a 40th anniversary celebration of the Judgment of Paris in Woodside, Calif., on Sept. 10. Attendees will have the rare chance to taste wines from most of the California wineries included in the Judgment of Paris.

“The California wine industry then was really struggling,” said David Gates, senior vice president of Ridge Vineyards. “There were lots of people really dedicated to making wine, but mostly selling their wines within 50 miles of the winery.”


The Spring Mountain Vineyard in St. Helena, Calif.
HANDOUT

“The Judgment of Paris broke the myth that great wine could only be made in France,” said Susan Doyle, general manager and technical director of Spring Mountain Vineyard, who will be pouring a 1979 and 2001 Spring Mountain Cabernet Sauvignon at the Commonwealth Club event. “It put Napa Valley in the limelight, where it remains as one of the world’s great wine regions.”

“Other winemakers, all over the world benefitted from the event,” said Gates, even if they weren’t in the test. Ridge Vineyards itself is not in Napa, but located in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California.

Today, the wine industry is dominated by small businesses, whether wineries themselves or the ecosystem that serves wineries and winemaking. Every state of the union has a winery, and 13 states have more than 100. As of 2015, there were 8,990 wineries in the U.S., overwhelmingly small producers, according to Wines & Vines magazine.

The impact was felt worldwide. “It was a turning point for wine producers everywhere as they realized they, too, could make extraordinary wines that could compete on the world stage,” said Marcus Notaro, winemaker of Stag’s Leap Wine Cellars.


“When you grow grapes and make wine, you put your heart & soul in it,” said Gates, explaining one reason small wineries continue to multiply. “It feeds your soul if you’re an entrepreneur.”

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The movie Bottle Shock, loosely based on the book Judgment of Paris by George M. Taber, provides an entertaining if not always accurate portrayal of the ensuing French-California showdown.

It was such a seminal event that bottles of the first-place red and white wines (1973 Stag’s Leap S.L.V. Cabernet Sauvignon and 1973 Chateau Montelena Chardonnay) are now in the Smithsonian Institution. “It’s thrilling and a great honor,” said Stag’s Leap Notaro about having a bottle of theirs included as one of the “101 Objects that Made America.”


Long after the result, French winemakers still claimed French wines were superior, arguing California wines would not “age” well. So in 2006, another blind tasting was held of the original vintages. The result? California wines won again, with Ridge Monte Bello placing first — both the original 1971 and a newer 2000 vintage taking first in a re-enactment (the 2000 will be poured at the Commonwealth Club event).

“We wanted to celebrate this event that has become synonymous with the renaissance of the wine industry and has brought so much prosperity and tourism to our area,” Duffy said.

Participating Wineries in the Commonwealth Club event on Sept. 10:



  • Stag’s Leap Wine Cellars

  • Ridge Vineyards

  • Chateau Montelena Winery

  • Veedercrest Estates

  • Spring Mountain Vineyard

  • Chalone Vineyard

  • Freemark Abbey

  • Domaine Chandon – sparkling wine, not a participant in the 1976 event


Rhonda Abrams is the author of 19 books including “Successful Business Plan: Secrets & Strategies” now in its sixth edition. Connect with Rhonda facebook.com/RhondaAbramsSmallBusiness and twitter: @RhondaAbrams. Register for Rhonda’s free business tips newsletter at www.PlanningShop.com


David Gates is senior vice president of Ridge Vineyards.
RIDGE VINEYARDS
Originally Published 6:05 am EDT August 31, 2
 

Immanuel

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French wine commands a far higher price than those from California. People who buy it are not going to be phased by a tariff. Regardless of your personal opinion of French wine, the market has determined it is the best.
Not necessarily, French do have wide set of price ranges for Wines from cheap to uber expensive, while premium wines will not be impacted much with tarriffs, but the average bottle that costs under 10 bucks will be hit hard.
 

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