Know Your 'Rafale'

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT For MMRCA2.
But for new engine and radar it's just impossible. The adjustments to be made are too huge. Better to study from the beginning a new fighter.

Disponibility.
Efficency.

F35 price is all but sure. The real support cost is not known. The plane is not FOC.

No.
The frame will be produced in India, but some highly critical components like FBW, Fadec cards, radar electronic core will remain from a french source.
India specific enhancements are for exemple : dedicated Spectra modes (low bands), new radar modes, new OSF, new weapons (Astra, Brahmos light...). NEVER a foreign engine.

No, if entire electronics are made in India, then it is not difficult. Everything will be indigenised just like Su30. France will not give any technology but only the design. Every other component will be developed by DRDO and installed in rafale.

The adjustment is minimal. Last time Rafale had used F404 for trials in 1990s before M88 engine was certified. Similarly, Kaveri engine has similar specification of F404 and hence it will be used in place of F404. The radar replacement is rather simple as the AESA radar is modular and can be used in any plane just plug and play.

I am not sure how FBW will be made. Maybe France has given the codes of FBW as part of the design or at least has given some parts of it and the rest will be developed by India. The FBW and airframe is the fundamental design of the plane. If India is given the design, then giving FBW is very important as without FBW, the plane is just a 3rd gen mechanical plane.

However, I am pretty confident that India will not get rafale if it is inferior to Su30 in indigenisation. So, matching Su30 in terms of indigenisation is important

 

[neeraj_]

India will Never make the same error than with the Mirage 2000 : too small fleet. Another 36 planes will be ordered. Sure. Real question is after that.

Mirage 2000 small fleet was a mistake but Rafale big fleet is money drain.

Tejas is enough

If Navy goes for F 18 then chances of rafale is may be 1 or 2more squadrons.


But If and a big If...

IN goes for Rafale then we'll see a production line in India which will churn out plane till 2030 - 35 atleast.

 

[neeraj_]

I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT For MMRCA2.
But for new engine and radar it's just impossible. The adjustments to be made are too huge. Better to study from the beginning a new fighter.

If India is able to develop it's own engine enough to provide thrust it will be integrated with Rafale .

1. The marketing by Dassault in India emphasized that numerous no. of times I don't think they'll be simply lying about it . French are manipulative but not liar I guess.

2. We will not be altering with avionics radar etc with ours which isn't mature or advanced compared to French. Nor IAF will do it but for sure alternative will be identified to make sure in case france bring any sort of arms embargo on us.


For IAF it will be better if we limit it to max 4 squadrons of Rafale.

Tejas will be able to perform most of the job required in western front while 4 squadrons of Rafale and 15 sukhoi 30 will be enough to handle china and pakistan both

3 mirage + 4 squadrons of mig 29 + 3-4 Jaguars will be there till 2030 - 35 too.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Brother YOU ARE TROLLING RIGHT ?

The jets you mentioned like F 15 F 16 or Mig 29 are 4th gen and will be retiring in coming decades.

Be happy don't take tension IAF is doing fine now in next 4 year they'll be in a better position if NDA comes.

You can call AMCA Marut NG if that makes you happy.

Tejas is the Flying dagger of the sky which will soon make umpteen cuts in the napak pork region and create history. We have made an ultimate dogfighting machine with one of the best BVR capability and need to improve on it. Bye.

No I am not, the aircraft named are as an example to what those two countries made to counter each other F 15 - SU 27, F 16 - mig 29 and they were only two for the air forces of the two countries, as far as I know, thats why I made a comparison with an additional aircraft called the Marut redesigned. Its only a thought, psychologically it makes an impact and we have another HAL project 'Marut revised' with more jobs available if done.

 

[Filtercoffee]

India will Never make the same error than with the Mirage 2000 : too small fleet. Another 36 planes will be ordered. Sure. Real question is after that.

I would think it will be a 2nd option to another aircraft chosen. Its too expensive to even operate let alone make the mission payments to France and If given a go ahead even after making large payments after discussions which takes awhile; I hope they dont plan in advance.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Disponibility.
Efficency.

F35 price is all but sure. The real support cost is not known. The plane is not FOC.

No.
The frame will be produced in India, but some highly critical components like FBW, Fadec cards, radar electronic core will remain from a french source.
India specific enhancements are for exemple : dedicated Spectra modes (low bands), new radar modes, new OSF, new weapons (Astra, Brahmos light...). NEVER a foreign engine.

I know its going to be a huge drama which is going to unfold, upgrades and systems are not easy to change due to their doctrine, big example is the Yom Kippur war and Israel's choice of the Mirage - 5 aircraft. France had plans, they did'nt sell and Israel designed a copy after receiving blue prints. Its called the Nesher. French are a hard bargain. Unpredictable to the common none briefed.

 

[vampyrbladez]

If India is able to develop it's own engine enough to provide thrust it will be integrated with Rafale .

1. The marketing by Dassault in India emphasized that numerous no. of times I don't think they'll be simply lying about it . French are manipulative but not liar I guess.

2. We will not be altering with avionics radar etc with ours which isn't mature or advanced compared to French. Nor IAF will do it but for sure alternative will be identified to make sure in case france bring any sort of arms embargo on us.


For IAF it will be better if we limit it to max 4 squadrons of Rafale.

Tejas will be able to perform most of the job required in western front while 4 squadrons of Rafale and 15 sukhoi 30 will be enough to handle china and pakistan both

3 mirage + 4 squadrons of mig 29 + 3-4 Jaguars will be there till 2030 - 35 too.

1. Snecma core in Kaveri =/= indigenous development.

2. US is giving India NATO status. We are lit bois!

3. IAF need 150 MRCA. Thus 114 + 36 = 150 Rafale will be bought.

#PKMKB

 

[neeraj_]

1. Snecma core in Kaveri =/= indigenous development.

2. US is giving India NATO status. We are lit bois!

3. IAF need 150 MRCA. Thus 114 + 36 = 150 Rafale will be bought.

#PKMKB

Snecma core isn't indigenous development K 9 or K10 will be . We must understand we will require 1000+ engine for aircrafts naval ships etc. We need to own the development of our own.

NATO like status. It is to boost it's defense sales . We welcome that though .

MRCA well let's see

Anyway Tejas mk1a we are already lit bro porks will be doomed with 18 squadrons of Tejas mk1 a + mk 2

#PKMKB

 

[vampyrbladez]

Snecma core isn't indigenous development K 9 or K10 will be . We must understand we will require 1000+ engine for aircrafts naval ships etc. We need to own the development of our own.

NATO like status. It is to boost it's defense sales . We welcome that though .

MRCA well let's see

Anyway Tejas mk1a we are already lit bro porks will be doomed with 18 squadrons of Tejas mk1 a + mk 2

#PKMKB

1. Snecma will give us ToT. Chinese beg , borrow and steal. 'Breakthroughs' aren't free.

2. NATO status is a result of successful defence policy. Strategic and diplomatic depth come to play as well.

3. See Rafale land in September followed by 114 more! :hippo:

4. Yup #PKMKB! :bounce:

 

[Armand2REP]

So it turns out the source of the AIN article about Porkis training on Rafale came from a jihadi website.

https://www.businesstoday.in/opinio...t-originated-jihadi-website/story/337016.html

 

[BON PLAN]

No, if entire electronics are made in India, then it is not difficult. Everything will be indigenised just like Su30. France will not give any technology but only the design. Every other component will be developed by DRDO and installed in rafale.

The adjustment is minimal. Last time Rafale had used F404 for trials in 1990s before M88 engine was certified. Similarly, Kaveri engine has similar specification of F404 and hence it will be used in place of F404. The radar replacement is rather simple as the AESA radar is modular and can be used in any plane just plug and play.

I am not sure how FBW will be made. Maybe France has given the codes of FBW as part of the design or at least has given some parts of it and the rest will be developed by India. The FBW and airframe is the fundamental design of the plane. If India is given the design, then giving FBW is very important as without FBW, the plane is just a 3rd gen mechanical plane.

However, I am pretty confident that India will not get rafale if it is inferior to Su30 in indigenisation. So, matching Su30 in terms of indigenisation is important

Rafale A was studied as a test bench for Delta & close coupled canards AND M88 tests (F404 was an interim solution).
Rafale C is fully optimised around M88, so it's all but easy to change of engine (a UAE deal failed because of the cost of installing a uprgaded M88 ....)

To change electronic parts is also difficult : you have to make all the electonic compatibility tests, all the weapons tests, all the IEM tests...
You can't put a new radar on a plane just like "plug and play" : there is some weight problem, there is some link between radar and FBW (for low flight).... You see easy some very difficult tasks.

FBW : Dassault will NEVER give you access to the FBW laws and will NEVER accept to giveyou the possibility to replace it by an indigen system. You are dreaming if you think so.

And, I think you are wrong : India will take more Rafale. 36 to 180. And maybe be some more Su30, but for a sole reason : to give some job to HAL.

 

[BON PLAN]

India already had Su30 which is made in India.

not a 100%. You are unable to produce next gen crystal blades for last gen engine.

 

[BON PLAN]

Tejas is enough

A point defense fighter..... even not FOC.
You are dreaming Bro.

 

[BON PLAN]

I would think it will be a 2nd option to another aircraft chosen. Its too expensive to even operate let alone make the mission payments to France and If given a go ahead even after making large payments after discussions which takes awhile; I hope they dont plan in advance.

You even don't imagine how many people on this forum and some others saying "INDIA WILL NEVER ORDERED RAFALE. NEVER".
And see now : 36 on order and a MMRCA2 tailor made for Rafale (I read it).
Some are even saying the deal will be cut 5 months before first delivery. You are very disapointing.

 

[neeraj_]

So it turns out the source of the AIN article about Porkis training on Rafale came from a jihadi website.

https://www.businesstoday.in/opinio...t-originated-jihadi-website/story/337016.html

Gayfool

Rafale A was studied as a test bench for Delta & close coupled canards AND M88 tests (F404 was an interim solution).
Rafale C is fully optimised around M88, so it's all but easy to change of engine (a UAE deal failed because of the cost of installing a uprgaded M88 ....)

To change electronic parts is also difficult : you have to make all the electonic compatibility tests, all the weapons tests, all the IEM tests...
You can't put a new radar on a plane just like "plug and play" : there is some weight problem, there is some link between radar and FBW (for low flight).... You see easy some very difficult tasks.

FBW : Dassault will NEVER give you access to the FBW laws and will NEVER accept to giveyou the possibility to replace it by an indigen system. You are dreaming if you think so.

And, I think you are wrong : India will take more Rafale. 36 to 180. And maybe be some more Su30, but for a sole reason : to give some job to HAL.

That mean Dassault and it's marketing team was lying straight face when they were making claims of fitting Kaveri in Rafale easily ?

Hmm thanks Let the gov come first we need to pressurise and dump rafale if their is no substantial tech transfer and we have to be dependent on them to upgrade in future . It can be done in the social media meet of RW youtubers and influencers.

And yes Sukhoi will come an additional squad is in process . May be one mig 29 too.

15 Su + 3 Mirage + 4 Mig 29 + 6 Tejas + 3 Rafale


31 Squadrons and 3 - 4 upgraded jaguars by 2024

35 is a decent number

F 18 SH --- 114 ?

 

[neeraj_]

A point defense fighter..... even not FOC.
You are dreaming Bro.

FOC is already done dude where are you ?

Tejas is enough for pakistan when placed in forward bases where it is meant for.

Tejas mk2 evolution essentially kills the need for more Rafales.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Rafale A was studied as a test bench for Delta & close coupled canards AND M88 tests (F404 was an interim solution).
Rafale C is fully optimised around M88, so it's all but easy to change of engine (a UAE deal failed because of the cost of installing a uprgaded M88 ....)

To change electronic parts is also difficult : you have to make all the electonic compatibility tests, all the weapons tests, all the IEM tests...
You can't put a new radar on a plane just like "plug and play" : there is some weight problem, there is some link between radar and FBW (for low flight).... You see easy some very difficult tasks.

FBW : Dassault will NEVER give you access to the FBW laws and will NEVER accept to giveyou the possibility to replace it by an indigen system. You are dreaming if you think so.

And, I think you are wrong : India will take more Rafale. 36 to 180. And maybe be some more Su30, but for a sole reason : to give some job to HAL.

UAE deal is different as France had to develop another engine which is not easy. But here India already has the engine. Also, Rafale A being used with F404 means that Rafale C can also be used with it. Rafale A was also meant for M88 but due to delay in development of M88 and uncertainty over reliability of new engine, F404 was used as temporary measure. So, using Kaveri engine like F404 is possible.

Radar can't be plud and play but if entire avionics suite is also Indian, then radar can be changed. India has the technology to make avionics suite. Integrating FBW is the only issue left.

FBW: How do you know that France won't agree to allow India to write its own FBW codes? France may not agree to give its algorithms but it can allow India to have its own FBW installed written by Indian engineers

not a 100%. You are unable to produce next gen crystal blades for last gen engine.

We produce Al31F blades (1980s technology) fully indigenously. That is enough for Su30 to run. Even F15 have similar engines as Su30 and they function well.

So, if Rafale does not offer indigenisation that matches Su30, then there is no point buying it. France need not give any technology but only has to allow India to integrate its own avionics, radar, engines and FBW on Rafale. Since France is not giving any technology, there is no real assistance except for the design of airframe.

 

[neeraj_]

You even don't imagine how many people on this forum and some others saying "INDIA WILL NEVER ORDERED RAFALE. NEVER".
And see now : 36 on order and a MMRCA2 tailor made for Rafale (I read it).
Some are even saying the deal will be cut 5 months before first delivery. You are very disapointing.

I doubt that it was crystal clear from the beginning .


At that time USA wasn't a real option

Mig 35/29 we already had them with 300 sukhoi order book expected..

Gripen vs Tejas .. we will pick TEJAS anyday

Rafale vs Typhoon . This was the only competition in which India was interested where Dassault Rafale duped by quoting low cost and turning out to be more expensive while Typhoon's reduced price were offered after Rafale was declared winner.

Ideally we should have taken the typhoon offer but we didn't for the reason NDA government didn't wanted to deal with 4-5 european countries one of them was Italy and IAF was keen on having Rafale.

With marketing of kaveri engine integration with Rafale

Dassault shift the balance in its favor . But as you pointed it was all lie so better we take a step back and think again .

 

[BON PLAN]

Tejas mk2 evolution essentially kills the need for more Rafales.

How many time to studied and produce it? 10+ years... Not the proper answer.

 

[BON PLAN]

Ideally we should have taken the typhoon offer but we didn't for the reason NDA government didn't wanted to deal with 4-5 european countries one of them was Italy and IAF was keen on having Rafale.

No.
The air dominance role is taken by Su30.
EF is not polyvalent enough and lack of a clear political support.