Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

In payload, the Rafale will be better but in all other aspects, the LCA MK-2 could be better.

and range, and versatility, and sustainability.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yeah, radar, EW, BVRAAM in MWF can be equal or better than Rafale. India has no dearth of software writers. These softwares written by Indians are likely to outmatch French ones easily if we go by the software skills of Indians

Indian software writers are very good, and very cheap. It's not a reason to think than french ones are not very good (but not cheap). After all we are yet the first european nation to study and built an AESA airborn radar (at least five years ahead of the others, except USA and Japan), same for nuclear SSN or SLBM etc.... Except financial capacity, we are on par with the US.

 

[BON PLAN]

In what way is Su30 inferior? All these so called Technology is just about electronics and not any inherent property of the ppane which means upgradation is the way.

All the avionics, radar and other electronics can be upgraded by India itself. India will soon install AESA radar and IRST and upgrade avionics and EW suites.

About flying cost, Su30 is 1.7 as heavy as Rafale and the fuel consumption is 1.6-1.7 times rafale.

Su30 is much cheaper than rafale to make even with all license ccost. Currently, Su30 costs Rs 430 crore while Rafale costs Rs 700 crore. Once the license cost is eliminated after the end of current contract, then India can make Su30 at much cheaper price

availability....
How many Su30 are ready at each time?
Dassault agreed a 70% target. And it will be better.

 

[Steven Rogers]

In what way is Su30 inferior? All these so called Technology is just about electronics and not any inherent property of the ppane which means upgradation is the way.

All the avionics, radar and other electronics can be upgraded by India itself. India will soon install AESA radar and IRST and upgrade avionics and EW suites.

About flying cost, Su30 is 1.7 as heavy as Rafale and the fuel consumption is 1.6-1.7 times rafale.

Su30 is much cheaper than rafale to make even with all license ccost. Currently, Su30 costs Rs 430 crore while Rafale costs Rs 700 crore. Once the license cost is eliminated after the end of current contract, then India can make Su30 at much cheaper price

The fact is Rafale at current form has superior AESA radar ,and a superior protection suite that includes digital RWR, MAWS,and an internal jammer while the Su30 lacks all of the above ,even though we have the option to upgrade ,we still have to reach Russians as it is not our ip. Any eventualities occured due to the upgrades which Russians haven't specified will cost the loss of guarantees on any Su30 India owns ,so how much you shout we did this or that,end of the day we need Russians . Su30 cost around 30000 dollars per flight hour while the Rafale cost half of that.

 

[Coalmine]

In w



Su30 is much cheaper than rafale to make even with all license ccost. Currently, Su30 costs Rs 430 crore while Rafale costs Rs 700 crore. Once the license cost is eliminated after the end of current contract, then India can make Su30 at much cheaper price

How long we need to pay licensing of Su 30 and can we modify and make like chinese J10 and j11s. And say it is our own.

 

[Arsalan123]

Mods kindly unban me on Pakistani terrorism thread.heavy fighter jets activity.looks like India has planned something tonight.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The use of Rafale : It can replace, depending of the mission, 2 to 3 Mirage 2000. Tejas is not comparable to Mirage 2000. Tejas Mk2, if really studied and built, will be on par or maybe slighly better. So 1 Rafale = 2 Tejas Mk2.

Indigenous content : it's not absolutely indispensable to put a whole Indian content in it. You can produce by your self main parts, according to Dassault and Thales and Safran drawings.

But before seeing an Indian Radar or Kaveri engine on a Rafale, it will take times and money. Not impossible, but time consumming. And you don't have time.

Except payload, Tejas MK2 will not be inferior to Rafale. So, in all roles except heavy bombing, 1 TEJAS MK2 = 1 Rafale.

Payload is not the most important criteria as the main mission will be to ensure air superiority and suppression of enemy ground fire.

India already has completed Radar as announced in Aero India. Tejas MK1A will have this radar only. Engine also has been certified by France but not powerful enough for Tejas. But it is powerful enough for Rafale.

So, all Technology from Indian side is already ready to be used in Rafale. It will take time but the rafale deal itself will last till 2023 for first 36 and then till 2028 for next 114. Ao, there is time.

Sorry, but you tried until yearsssss, and for now you only have studied and built a light aiframe, without own radar and without proper engine.
I'm not trying to be unpleasant, but it's just a truth.

You need time to be self dependant. And until that time, you need to import (and if possible locally produce) foreign fighters.

We never tried. Tejas was only started in 1996-98 and even then there was not enough political will. Aesa radar only started from 2013. We also have Su30 made in India. So, we are already self sufficient in making Su30.

Also, now France itself has certified Kaveri for flight. Hence it is only a mater of France allowing it to be used in Rafale

Indian software writers are very good, and very cheap. It's not a reason to think than french ones are not very good (but not cheap). After all we are yet the first european nation to study and built an AESA airborn radar (at least five years ahead of the others, except USA and Japan), same for nuclear SSN or SLBM etc.... Except financial capacity, we are on par with the US.

So, Indian AESA and EW will also be as good as French. Hence no need to say Indian technology will be inferior. Radar is already complete and announced in Aero India 2019

availability....
How many Su30 are ready at each time?
Dassault agreed a 70% target. And it will be better.

As of now Su30 is available in 70%.

The fact is Rafale at current form has superior AESA radar ,and a superior protection suite that includes digital RWR, MAWS,and an internal jammer while the Su30 lacks all of the above ,even though we have the option to upgrade ,we still have to reach Russians as it is not our ip. Any eventualities occured due to the upgrades which Russians haven't specified will cost the loss of guarantees on any Su30 India owns ,so how much you shout we did this or that,end of the day we need Russians . Su30 cost around 30000 dollars per flight hour while the Rafale cost half of that.

Why we need Russian guarantee? If we make our own Su30 and repair it ourselves, why Russian guarantee is needed? As I said, Su30 uses 1 generation older avionics and radar. India has developed newer radar and avionics which will be integrated into su30 in MLU or overhaul.

Su30 is a heavy plane and consumes more fuel. So, it will be more expensive than Rafale. But we don't count the coat of war. Hence we are still better with Su30 than with imported Rafale.

How long we need to pay licensing of Su 30 and can we modify and make like chinese J10 and j11s. And say it is our own.

We have a contract upto 273 fighters. Once that is complete, license fee ends there. After that we have unlimited rights.

 

[Armand2REP]

Except payload, Tejas MK2 will not be inferior to Rafale. So, in all roles except heavy bombing, 1 TEJAS MK2 = 1 Rafale.

Do we even know the final configuration of MK2?

 

[Gessler]

Tejas Mk-2 is a pipedream that is realistically more than 10 years away. If HAL is gonna be taking 3 years (till 2022) for the first flight of Mk-1A (just to change the radar & EW suite on existing Mk-1), anyone who expects a Mk-2 first flight before 2025 is not at all being realistic.

And service induction is a long way from there (~2030 period).

If there is one lesson we learnt from the Mk-1 experience, it is that we should never forego immediate requirements in the hope of a pipedream of distant future. Sad to see many people here advocating that we repeat the same mistakes again - how many squadrons will IAF be left with by the time? 20? Below half the sanctioned strength?

Such ridiculous idiocy.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Do we even know the final configuration of MK2?

Final configuration is ready. Prototyping is remaining.

Tejas Mk-2 is a pipedream that is realistically more than 10 years away. If HAL is gonna be taking 3 years (till 2022) for the first flight of Mk-1A (just to change the radar & EW suite on existing Mk-1), anyone who expects a Mk-2 first flight before 2025 is not at all being realistic.

And service induction is a long way from there (~2030 period).

If there is one lesson we learnt from the Mk-1 experience, it is that we should never forego immediate requirements in the hope of a pipedream of distant future. Sad to see many people here advocating that we repeat the same mistakes again - how many squadrons will IAF be left with by the time? 20? Below half the sanctioned strength?

Such ridiculous idiocy.

You appear to be the idiot you call others to be! Mk1A is delayed not because it is difficult to have the flight design but the requirements take time to be developed. Nevertheless, the requirements will be same for MK2 with some additional design changes. So, if design is stabilised, then other things for Mk2 will already be ready. It is called parallel development.

Second, India has Su30 manufacturing. So, there is no question of India not being able to make its own fighters. Su30 is multirole and can work for all operations

 

[Steven Rogers]

The use of Rafale : It can replace, depending of the mission, 2 to 3 Mirage 2000. Tejas is not comparable to Mirage 2000. Tejas Mk2, if really studied and built, will be on par or maybe slighly better. So 1 Rafale = 2 Tejas Mk2.

Indigenous content : it's not absolutely indispensable to put a whole Indian content in it. You can produce by your self main parts, according to Dassault and Thales and Safran drawings.

But before seeing an Indian Radar or Kaveri engine on a Rafale, it will take times and money. Not impossible, but time consumming. And you don't have time.

Tejas is advance than mirage 2000 which haven't been upgraded.

Tejas Mk-2 is a pipedream that is realistically more than 10 years away. If HAL is gonna be taking 3 years (till 2022) for the first flight of Mk-1A (just to change the radar & EW suite on existing Mk-1), anyone who expects a Mk-2 first flight before 2025 is not at all being realistic.

And service induction is a long way from there (~2030 period).

If there is one lesson we learnt from the Mk-1 experience, it is that we should never forego immediate requirements in the hope of a pipedream of distant future. Sad to see many people here advocating that we repeat the same mistakes again - how many squadrons will IAF be left with by the time? 20? Below half the sanctioned strength?

Such ridiculous idiocy.

Cough!Cough!
............

 

[Steven Rogers]

Sorry, but you tried until yearsssss, and for now you only have studied and built a light aiframe, without own radar and without proper engine.
I'm not trying to be unpleasant, but it's just a truth.

You need time to be self dependant. And until that time, you need to import (and if possible locally produce) foreign fighters.

I guess the backend and the antenna belongs to radar developed by the lrde in the ELM2032.

 

[Steven Rogers]

The use of Rafale : It can replace, depending of the mission, 2 to 3 Mirage 2000. Tejas is not comparable to Mirage 2000. Tejas Mk2, if really studied and built, will be on par or maybe slighly better. So 1 Rafale = 2 Tejas Mk2.

Indigenous content : it's not absolutely indispensable to put a whole Indian content in it. You can produce by your self main parts, according to Dassault and Thales and Safran drawings.

But before seeing an Indian Radar or Kaveri engine on a Rafale, it will take times and money. Not impossible, but time consumming. And you don't have time.

That's an obsolete argument . As by the facts ,Gripen Ng offer more range and endurance than Rafale with payload of 6tons(close enough to that of rafales 6.7tons) on paper which seems true for a bit. But leave that ,Mwf will be offering the endurance of a medium weight fighter ,so that 1=2 argument is useless,might be correct for 2 tejas or mirage 2000(older)= 1 Rafale.

 

[Gessler]

You appear to be the idiot you call others to be! Mk1A is delayed not because it is difficult to have the flight design but the requirements take time to be developed.

The requirements are tabled and fixed. Tenders were called for the necessary new equipment (AESA radar and EW suite) and winners have been selected as well. The given timeline of 3 years for first flight of prototype was announced at Aero India 2019 - not some long time back.

Nevertheless, the requirements will be same for MK2 with some additional design changes.

Mk-2 is more or less an entirely new plane.

Stretched, strengthened airframe
Internal layout of avionics and LRUs totally different
Subsystems are different
Engine is different
Flight control logic is different (canards)

If these guys are gonna take 3 years just to swap out the radar & EW suite of an existing plane (Mk-1 and Mk-1A airframes are exactly the same), imagine the time needed to develop & certify a plane that is so much different.

Use some common sense instead of just mindless optimism.

So, if design is stabilised, then other things for Mk2 will already be ready. It is called parallel development.

SAAB took some 4 years from starting of development on Gripen E prototypes in 2013, till first flight in 2017. IOC is not expected for at least a couple more years. FOC is scheduled for 2026. That is a total of 13 years development time. And that's with $2 billion budget allocated for development of E variant - roughly twice the amount we spent on entire Tejas program as of 2013.

Who is the idiot who thinks Mk-2 will be developed any sooner?

Second, India has Su30 manufacturing. So, there is no question of India not being able to make its own fighters. Su30 is multirole and can work for all operations

If Su-30 is our own fighter and it is multirole, then why do you need Tejas or MMRCA 2.0?

IAF is a fool?

That's an obsolete argument . As by the facts ,Gripen Ng offer more range and endurance than Rafale with payload of 6tons(close enough to that of rafales 6.7tons) on paper which seems true for a bit. But leave that ,Mwf will be offering the endurance of a medium weight fighter ,so that 1=2 argument is useless,might be correct for 2 tejas or mirage 2000(older)= 1 Rafale.

Rafale max payload is 9.5 tons.

More than any jet in MMRCA...even more than Su-30 and Su-35.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Final configuration is ready. Prototyping is remaining.

Yes they are ready and infact it will carry most of configurations of earlier Lca mk2(in softwares and hardwares requirement)

You appear to be the idiot you call others to be! Mk1A is delayed not because it is difficult to have the flight design but the requirements take time to be developed. Nevertheless, the requirements will be same for MK2 with some additional design changes. So, if design is stabilised, then other things for Mk2 will already be ready. It is called parallel development.

Second, India has Su30 manufacturing. So, there is no question of India not being able to make its own fighters. Su30 is multirole and can work for all operations

First the IP belongs to Russia. Feel free to fetch the reach recent 18 more Sukhoi talks with Russia on the web.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Rafale max payload is 9.5 tons.

More than any jet in MMRCA...even more than Su-30 and Su-35.

Thanks for pointing that out..... Even greater than the eurofighter .

 

[asianobserve]

They certainly don't look like pilots to me. The pilots are up front. The Pakis are in the back to collect the garbage.

And spy on Rafale if they're not collecting garbage....

 

[neeraj_]

How many time to studied and produce it? 10+ years... Not the proper answer.

All the major systems are in place it will take the same or more time to induct Rafale and will cost a bomb . Tejas mk1/1a production run is there to catch number till then .

We need new jets not just to check on squadron strength for which we had russian and American option but transfer of tech where we are stuck . Specially mentioned by IAF too for the first time clearly in 114 + ,fighter mmrca deal.

French won't do it as you suggested on engine and other promises. We have committees specially to monitor offset and TOT if they find them missing the target the 114 order will not go to Rafale . They haven't yet completed the offset from previous Mirage 2000 upgrade contract.

F 18 SH for navy is a strong contender and if Americans provide considerabe transfer of tech more order can be given

Regarding politics russians are more dependable friend . We have better relation with them both G2G and P2P which we don't share with french. Typhoon downside was getting linked with our Italian mafia . Hollande did no favor in that regard with his interview.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The requirements are tabled and fixed. Tenders were called for the necessary new equipment (AESA radar and EW suite) and winners have been selected as well. The given timeline of 3 years for first flight of prototype was announced at Aero India 2019 - not some long time back.

There is no PROTOTYPE of MK1A. Mk1A is an UPGRADE. Please have common sense. Also, we don't have new radars or EW suite. Hence the tender is for joint development and aettise of infrastructure for making them. Obviously, do you expect radar and EW suite to be produced in 1 year? We are not integrating random imported items but want to develop these and the 3 years ia development time, not integration time

There are 2 parts of a fighter - one is airframe and other is electronics. Both are important and both take time. In fact, development if electronics is the hardest. By developing MK1A,the electronics part will be complete. Airframe is under development since 2015-16. So, that too will be ready. Unlike the past where development of plane needed development of airframe and avionics, in Tejas MK2, it will need only airframe development whereas electronics will already be ready with MK1A.

Mk-2 is more or less an entirely new plane.

Stretched, strengthened airframe
Internal layout of avionics and LRUs totally different
Subsystems are different
Engine is different
Flight control logic is different (canards)

If these guys are gonna take 3 years just to swap out the radar & EW suite of an existing plane (Mk-1 and Mk-1A airframes are exactly the same), imagine the time needed to develop & certify a plane that is so much different.

Use some common sense instead of just mindless optimism.

Instead of having mental problems and mindless delusion, first look at anything by comparison with foreign countries and their timeline.

The only major difference between MK2 and MK1A will be in terms of airframe. This airframe difference involves all the difference of dimension, LRU arrangements and FBW changes.

This change is significant and that is why it will take till 2025 to get fulfilled. The work started in FY16 itself. So, it is a full 10 years which is what took for development of other planes like Rafale.

Unlike what your deranged claims that swapping of radar and other electronics takes 3 years, it is the development of these items that takes time. Swapping can be doe in a year or so if the items are developed. Since the items have to be developed from scratch, it takes time. But once the items are developed, swapping doesn't take time.

In case of MK1A, what is needed is developing of the radar, EW, avionics, HUD, SPJ etc. But in case of MK2, all these would have been already readied and hence no additional time will be needed. The same components of MK1A will be used in MK2 as well.

The engine will be F414 for the time being till 110KN engine is developed. This may take till 2027.

If Su-30 is our own fighter and it is multirole, then why do you need Tejas or MMRCA 2.0?

IAF is a fool?

Wah! You already made a conclusion without thinking? Or are you incapable of thinking?

Firstly, it is political decision, not IAF decision. Secondly, the reason why Rafale was selected ia the offsets which include indigenisation. India may have preferred to have another medium weight plane which will also be made in India. That is why I claim that Rafake will be fitted with Kaveri & UTTAM

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Give me one clear source of Dassault team saying that.

Oi, now you will also say there is no proof of FRENCH saying "the so called secret files of scorpene submarine that were made public by Australian magazine or newspaper was because of mistake from India".
Becuase you said in the HEAT OF THE MOMENT that WE were responsible for the leak.
Your proof:scroll or search in this forum previous pages too you will found the above thing which I said.