Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

That mean Dassault and it's marketing team was lying straight face when they were making claims of fitting Kaveri in Rafale easily ?

Give me one clear source of Dassault team saying that.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

How many time to studied and produce it? 10+ years... Not the proper answer.

Tejas MK2 started in 2015 itself. So, it should be ready by 2025-26. So, if Rafale doesn't give indigenous content, why would India go for it?

Give me one clear source of Dassault team saying that.

The 36 Rafale itself will be delivered by 2023. So, additional ones will have to come from 2023. If 114 more is bought, it will take at least till 2027-28 to finish the 114 rafale. By then India will be having Tejas MK2. India already has Su30. So, amidst all these, why Rafale? What is the use

 

[Armand2REP]

We produce Al31F blades (1980s technology) fully indigenously. That is enough for Su30 to run. Even F15 have similar engines as Su30 and they function well.

You were the one that posted the MKI indigenous parts list and it showed you didn't make the blades. If you don't believe your own sources then what is the point of arguing?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

You were the one that posted the MKI indigenous parts list and it showed you didn't make the blades. If you don't believe your own sources then what is the point of arguing?

No, I am the one who has written close to 200 posts stating that Al31F blades are made in India. I am the one arguing with everyone who said otherwise. I have always said that Al31F is 100% made in India.

You must have mistaken.

 

[Armand2REP]

No, I am the one who has written close to 200 posts stating that Al31F blades are made in India. I am the one arguing with everyone who said otherwise. I have always said that Al31F is 100% made in India.

You must have mistaken.

No, it was you...

The outsourced components are very few and limited to simple things:

Outsourced parts... it says right there "Compressor Blades"

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

No, it was you...



Outsourced parts... it says right there "Compressor Blades"

Read again. In the outsourced parts, there is sub division which says operation. So, only the labour part is outsourced.

This means that HAL hires external engineers to do the machining parts. Maybe from DMRL or GTRE the engineers are outsourced.

Read the other outsourcing items. Wherever the entire item is outsourced, it is written that the item itself is bought and operations are not mentioned. In case of blades, the operations part alone (labour alone) is outsourced

 

[Armand2REP]

Read again. In the outsourced parts, there is sub division which says operation. So, only the labour part is outsourced.

This means that HAL hires external engineers to do the machining parts. Maybe from DMRL or GTRE the engineers are outsourced.

Read the other outsourcing items. Wherever the entire item is outsourced, it is written that the item itself is bought and operations are not mentioned. In case of blades, the operations part alone (labour alone) is outsourced

It says...

Outsourcing = Machined Parts>Turbines & Compressor Blades

It couldn't be more crystal clear than that. Maybe DRML or GTRE can't make them which is why Kaveri doesn't fly... obviously it is outsourced from Russia. You know the ones that actually make them? You know the reason why MKI had a such a low availability waiting on spares from Russia? Because you don't make them!

 

[Tang]

It says...

Outsourcing = Machined Parts>Turbines & Compressor Blades

It couldn't be more crystal clear than that. Maybe DRML or GTRE can't make them which is why Kaveri doesn't fly... obviously it is outsourced from Russia. You know the ones that actually make them? You know the reason why MKI had a such a low availability waiting on spares from Russia? Because you don't make them!

Outsourcing does not mean outsourced to Russia or any foreign country supplier,
It means outsourced to Indian companies.
https://hal-india.co.in/Outsourcing/M__343

 

[Filtercoffee]

You even don't imagine how many people on this forum and some others saying "INDIA WILL NEVER ORDERED RAFALE. NEVER".
And see now : 36 on order and a MMRCA2 tailor made for Rafale (I read it).
Some are even saying the deal will be cut 5 months before first delivery. You are very disapointing.

My point exactly. The Rafale deal is too expensive for the likes of me. I feel as an Indian we can make one ourselves, there are to many people to not think of having one. But LCA and AMCA will be ideally powered, not like what happened to HF 24. Its a fantastic aircraft, I would want more numbers earlier in the deal, now financially I would rather they take it easy, if sold ideally why not. But the problem comes in the foreign exchange and teams and crew exchange where they wold be happier doing 'Make in India' and 'Viva la France' in their own country. You see how bad it got with riots and now the cathedral fire, here its the usual cock. It trickles down to the public if the government is unwell. So I completely agree but my points pop-up when thinking about more Rafales.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

It says...

Outsourcing = Machined Parts>Turbines & Compressor Blades

It couldn't be more crystal clear than that. Maybe DRML or GTRE can't make them which is why Kaveri doesn't fly... obviously it is outsourced from Russia. You know the ones that actually make them? You know the reason why MKI had a such a low availability waiting on spares from Russia? Because you don't make them!

Firstly look at the full context. Read how parts like PTFE ring, bush etc are written as outsourced parts whereas in case of machined parts, it is only written as- 'Types' and then followed by specific outsourcing in these.

You have missed the word - 'Types'. Read again and then you will find it. Then under it, what exactly is outsourced in these types is mentioned. Here, we can see that only certain operations of these types are outsourced and not the entire part.

As I said, HAL can outsource the high end metallurgy to other experts in GTRE, DMRL or DRDO as HAL staff may not have expertise. But the parts are not outsourced

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Again the same Tejas vs Rafale.

Tejas Mk2 will replace M2k and mig 29s. Its not a replacement for Rafale.

Rafales outmatch Tejas Mk2.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Immanuel]

Again the same Tejas vs Rafale.

Tejas Mk2 will replace M2k and mig 29s. Its not a replacement for Rafale.

Rafales outmatch Tejas Mk2.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

In payload, the Rafale will be better but in all other aspects, the LCA MK-2 could be better.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

In payload, the Rafale will be better but in all other aspects, the LCA MK-2 could be better.

Will Mk2 have a better radar and Electronic suite?

Will Mk2 have a better missile than meteor ?

The Rafale today is better than MK2 of 2026. Further tranches of Rafale may be even better.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Will Mk2 have a better radar and Electronic suite?

Will Mk2 have a better missile than meteor ?

The Rafale today is better than MK2 of 2026. Further tranches of Rafale may be even better.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Yeah, radar, EW, BVRAAM in MWF can be equal or better than Rafale. India has no dearth of software writers. These softwares written by Indians are likely to outmatch French ones easily if we go by the software skills of Indians

 

[Steven Rogers]

Tejas MK2 started in 2015 itself. So, it should be ready by 2025-26. So, if Rafale doesn't give indigenous content, why would India go for it?


The 36 Rafale itself will be delivered by 2023. So, additional ones will have to come from 2023. If 114 more is bought, it will take at least till 2027-28 to finish the 114 rafale. By then India will be having Tejas MK2. India already has Su30. So, amidst all these, why Rafale? What is the use

Su30 is technologically inferior to the Rafale and also cost almost double (inflight hour price) than the rafale. Now imagine and compare of making 200hours of sortie by each Su30 and Rafale in equal context.

 

[Armand2REP]

In payload, the Rafale will be better but in all other aspects, the LCA MK-2 could be better.

Going with Israel as the avionics supplier is a big mistake. With the purchase of the F-35 that is not having any Israeli equipment, the IDF will not be providing government funding for avionics enhancements. They are now reliant on the US for that.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Su30 is technologically inferior to the Rafale and also cost almost double (inflight hour price) than the rafale. Now imagine and compare of making 200hours of sortie by each Su30 and Rafale in equal context.

In what way is Su30 inferior? All these so called Technology is just about electronics and not any inherent property of the ppane which means upgradation is the way.

All the avionics, radar and other electronics can be upgraded by India itself. India will soon install AESA radar and IRST and upgrade avionics and EW suites.

About flying cost, Su30 is 1.7 as heavy as Rafale and the fuel consumption is 1.6-1.7 times rafale.

Su30 is much cheaper than rafale to make even with all license ccost. Currently, Su30 costs Rs 430 crore while Rafale costs Rs 700 crore. Once the license cost is eliminated after the end of current contract, then India can make Su30 at much cheaper price

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Going with Israel as the avionics supplier is a big mistake. With the purchase of the F-35 that is not having any Israeli equipment, the IDF will not be providing government funding for avionics enhancements. They are now reliant on the US for that.

Avionics for Tejas is Indian, not Israeli. India has developed its own avionics with HAL and SAMTEL JV. Israel used to supply avionics for Su30 at one point of time but that also has been indigenised.

Only thing Israeli is Helmet mounted display and radar for Tejas MK1. For Mk1A, even radar will be indigenous.

 

[BON PLAN]

Tejas MK2 started in 2015 itself. So, it should be ready by 2025-26. So, if Rafale doesn't give indigenous content, why would India go for it?


The 36 Rafale itself will be delivered by 2023. So, additional ones will have to come from 2023. If 114 more is bought, it will take at least till 2027-28 to finish the 114 rafale. By then India will be having Tejas MK2. India already has Su30. So, amidst all these, why Rafale? What is the use

The use of Rafale : It can replace, depending of the mission, 2 to 3 Mirage 2000. Tejas is not comparable to Mirage 2000. Tejas Mk2, if really studied and built, will be on par or maybe slighly better. So 1 Rafale = 2 Tejas Mk2.

Indigenous content : it's not absolutely indispensable to put a whole Indian content in it. You can produce by your self main parts, according to Dassault and Thales and Safran drawings.

But before seeing an Indian Radar or Kaveri engine on a Rafale, it will take times and money. Not impossible, but time consumming. And you don't have time.

 

[BON PLAN]

My point exactly. The Rafale deal is too expensive for the likes of me. I feel as an Indian we can make one ourselves, there are to many people to not think of having one. But LCA and AMCA will be ideally powered, not like what happened to HF 24. Its a fantastic aircraft, I would want more numbers earlier in the deal, now financially I would rather they take it easy, if sold ideally why not. But the problem comes in the foreign exchange and teams and crew exchange where they wold be happier doing 'Make in India' and 'Viva la France' in their own country. You see how bad it got with riots and now the cathedral fire, here its the usual cock. It trickles down to the public if the government is unwell. So I completely agree but my points pop-up when thinking about more Rafales.

Sorry, but you tried until yearsssss, and for now you only have studied and built a light aiframe, without own radar and without proper engine.
I'm not trying to be unpleasant, but it's just a truth.

You need time to be self dependant. And until that time, you need to import (and if possible locally produce) foreign fighters.