Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

Those money were blood and sweat of my countrymen and women.
WELL WAS IT NOT THE PREVIOUS SAFRAN OFFER OF M-88 CORE WAS REJECTED.
Then how, this thing is still made to go on?
God save us, from you business minded people because this government has already in my eyes has performed average in defence.
Every small or big war give cold shower to us on "how important indigenous weapon are",but talks and committees are what we get.
Another "beautiful reliance on foreign maal" in terms of ATHOS.... NO NO "OH MY GOD" gun has happened.

The only one you have to blame is DRDO. When are you going to hold them accountable for their failures?

 

[Filtercoffee]

France will never let HAL install Kaveri and Uttam on the Rafale. They tend to be very possessive about their 'exported military equipment'. Also; they are very welcoming, and expensive so 'PAF ke haat aya aur muh na laga Rafale' can be said about the current PAF state of affairs.

I think another batch or two is not needed, I personally recommend another aircraft for the IAF and Indian Naval aviation fleet requirement. Most important, these guys are going to be so worried about the aircraft, they wont be trained to a level of a self designed fighter will get them to be.

Upgrade the HF-24. Full control and no stress can make wonders for now the pilots are living, instead of 'graving' their career. I know this sounds very far, upgrade a fighter that was retired in the 90s, whats the point it will be made into a platform which is totally composite, super maneuverable and stealth inclined but the fact of the problem can be killed by just doing that.

With two Kaveri delivering 162 KN wet total on a already proven, now composite airframe will get it to super cruise. Imagine a F - 35 cockpit setup for it, how uplifting it will be for the country and the pilots and aircrew that were assigned to the original.

Its a big high to possess such a great upgraded historic enemy killer just after IAF sent Mirages over the border. Wars won can make one dream of its return, stealth and beyond.

 

[neeraj_]

France will never let HAL install Kaveri and Uttam on the Rafale. They tend to be very possessive about their 'exported military equipment'. Also; they are very welcoming, and expensive so 'PAF ke haat aya aur muh na laga Rafale' can be said about the current PAF state of affairs.

I think another batch or two is not needed, I personally recommend another aircraft for the IAF and Indian Naval aviation fleet requirement. Most important, these guys are going to be so worried about the aircraft, they wont be trained to a level of a self designed fighter will get them to be.

Upgrade the HF-24. Full control and no stress can make wonders for now the pilots are living, instead of 'graving' their career. I know this sounds very far, upgrade a fighter that was retired in the 90s, whats the point it will be made into a platform which is totally composite, super maneuverable and stealth inclined but the fact of the problem can be killed by just doing that.

With two Kaveri delivering 162 KN wet total on a already proven, now composite airframe will get it to super cruise. Imagine a F - 35 cockpit setup for it, how uplifting it will be for the country and the pilots and aircrew that were assigned to the original.

Its a big high to possess such a great upgraded historic enemy killer just after IAF sent Mirages over the border. Wars won can make one dream of its return, stealth and beyond.

Marut : To revive it is sheer stupidity to think about it is even worse . We have a functioning Tejas and AMCA PROJECT .

If you mean to revive for display and stuff may be as we do have a few airframes.

Rafale will come 36 + 18 is for sure . More than that if Navy select it . But politically 57 F 18 make sense and they are less costly too compared to Rafale .

France as a ally vs USA in short term I'll pick USA for long-term none of them.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Marut : To revive it is sheer stupidity to think about it is even worse . We have a functioning Tejas and AMCA PROJECT .

If you mean to revive for display and stuff may be as we do have a few airframes.

Rafale will come 36 + 18 is for sure . More than that if Navy select it . But politically 57 F 18 make sense and they are less costly too compared to Rafale .

France as a ally vs USA in short term I'll pick USA for long-term none of them.

The Marut makes more sense due to full control of use and upgrade. We always need 'advise' to send fighters into enemy territory. No one can tell the IAF what it should do with the Marut. It also gives us a big choice of 'Jeckel and hyde'. Responsibility is power no one on this planet posses, psychological warfare kills more then a meteor or an astra and Indian defense won wars with the Marut in service. The marut upgrade attached has Klimov stealth thrust vector nozzles.

And why not another HAL project fighter aircraft. Its like a SU - 27, MIG - 29 (former USSR) for the Russian federation and a F - 15 and F - 16 for the USA combo and now here a one and only in the world 3rd supersonic fighter bomber, no other time line post the Vietnam War has this sort of current choice for the Airforce with all three ready for a Naval variant.

Example for the stealth upgrade is -

 

[neeraj_]

LOL.
Part of the 36 planes is already paid!
And IAF need planes urgently. No way it succeed.

We do have other option for getting jet urgently.

But can you provide us some advantage of paying over 100 million dollar a piece for Rafale vs 50 million sukhoi 30 60 -70 million sukhoi pakfa or 80 - 90 million F 35 A ?

Or it is just like Indian aloo finger chaat minus the taste becoming French fries with double the price ?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Marut : To revive it is sheer stupidity to think about it is even worse . We have a functioning Tejas and AMCA PROJECT .

If you mean to revive for display and stuff may be as we do have a few airframes.

Rafale will come 36 + 18 is for sure . More than that if Navy select it . But politically 57 F 18 make sense and they are less costly too compared to Rafale .

France as a ally vs USA in short term I'll pick USA for long-term none of them.

1. HAL Tejas is to replace MiG 21 and MiG 27. Nothing more.

2. MRCA to be fulfilled by Rafale. Of all planes in that category it has the best maneuverability, high TWR, low WL, SPECTRA EW (comparable to F 35 DAS), AESA radar operational unlike EF 2000 and also upgraded under F4.

3. F 18SH is only for naval role.

4. Neither. Self help is best help. In this world there are only 'allies' not friends. Wherever interests meet you gain an 'ally' else a 'competitor'. Simple

 

[neeraj_]

1. HAL Tejas is to replace MiG 21 and MiG 27. Nothing more.

2. MRCA to be fulfilled by Rafale. Of all planes in that category it has the best maneuverability, high TWR, low WL, SPECTRA EW (comparable to F 35 DAS), AESA radar operational unlike EF 2000 and also upgraded under F4.

3. F 18SH is only for naval role.

4. Neither. Self help is best help. In this world there are only 'allies' not friends. Wherever interests meet you gain an 'ally' else a 'competitor'. Simple

For Point 1 and 2

Tejas mk1a is able to perform role of mig 21 and mig 27 ok though it can do more than that specially with E Derby and Astra mk 2

But Tejas mk 2 can definitely do more with SFDR in development Uttam Aesa etc Rafale will be a money drain. We need Rafale for tech transfer which I doubt they'll do much .

3. Why F 18 is only for naval role ?

Between I have mentioned that only 57 around for Navy considering its larger size a few will be able to onboard the IAC. Though am not sure how much diff it will make.

4 I said essentially the same thing .

Bottom line Tejas is enough to meet our requirements considering pakistan isn't far from our forward airbases.

 

[neeraj_]

The Marut makes more sense due to full control of use and upgrade. We always need 'advise' to send fighters into enemy territory. No one can tell the IAF what it should do with the Marut. It also gives us a big choice of 'Jeckel and hyde'. Responsibility is power no one on this planet posses, psychological warfare kills more then a meteor or an astra and Indian defense won wars with the Marut in service. The marut upgrade attached has Klimov stealth thrust vector nozzles.

And why not another HAL project fighter aircraft. Its like a SU - 27, MIG - 29 (former USSR) for the Russian federation and a F - 15 and F - 16 for the USA combo and now here a one and only in the world 3rd supersonic fighter bomber, no other time line post the Vietnam War has this sort of current choice for the Airforce with all three ready for a Naval variant.

Example for the stealth upgrade is -

Brother YOU ARE TROLLING RIGHT ?

The jets you mentioned like F 15 F 16 or Mig 29 are 4th gen and will be retiring in coming decades.

Be happy don't take tension IAF is doing fine now in next 4 year they'll be in a better position if NDA comes.

You can call AMCA Marut NG if that makes you happy.

Tejas is the Flying dagger of the sky which will soon make umpteen cuts in the napak pork region and create history. We have made an ultimate dogfighting machine with one of the best BVR capability and need to improve on it. Bye.

 

[BON PLAN]

Chidambaram has said if Congress wins they will buy more Rafales at lower prices - now we all know what he meant by that ..
In any case Rafales will be bought - politically impossible to cancel it now - whether more will be bought or not is still up in the air.

It's a fact another batch of Rafale will cost less :indigenisation is paid, 2 air bases are upgraded, part of tool bench are already purchased. Quite all fixed costs are already paid.
36 more planes don't need more air base (even if two for 72 planes is short. But in France we found up to 3 sqd of 20 planes on a single base).

 

[BON PLAN]

we tested it my friend.it's true.

Where? when? What version? F1 is not F3...

 

[BON PLAN]

we already fly your old mirages.before india french relations,there was french pakistani relations.unfortunately money talks. xd

Mirage 3. Yes.

 

[Tactical Frog]

We do have other option for getting jet urgently.

But can you provide us some advantage of paying over 100 million dollar a piece for Rafale vs 50 million sukhoi 30 60 -70 million sukhoi pakfa or 80 - 90 million F 35 A ?

Or it is just like Indian aloo finger chaat minus the taste becoming French fries with double the price ?

Rafale is a fully operational platform. Bullet-proof even. The more US and their allies will test their F-35, the more nasty surprises they will get. Like the one in Japan.

I am not entering a debate Rafale vs Sukhoi .... probably one can write a book by just compiling hundreds of posts in this forum

 

[Gessler]

Where? when? What version? F1 is not F3...

Before MMRCA started. I believe +/- a decade ago. This was ofcourse a very old version of Rafale compared to what's on F3.

The Qatar article however was a Jon Lake fake news. AINOnline retracted the article after checking sources.

 

[BON PLAN]

I know that Pakistanis have tested Rafales. But Pakistanis testing SU30 is fake news as China is not allowed to give away Russian items to others. China may have given a joyride on Su30 but would never expose its details as it violates agreement with Russia.

About Rafales, India will have its own modifications. In all likelihood, Indian rafales to be made in 114 MMRC tender will have Indian avionics, UTTAm radar and Kaveri engine. It makes little sense to worry about Rafale being known to Qatar, PAF etc

I'm obsolutely not sure a MMRCA2 Rafale to be UTTAM and Kaveri fitted.
Not time enough to qualify this new equipment, and too much cost and what about the size and weight of Kaveri?...
Maybe another batch after, in parallel.

 

[BON PLAN]

France will never let HAL install Kaveri and Uttam on the Rafale. They tend to be very possessive about their 'exported military equipment'. Also; they are very welcoming, and expensive so 'PAF ke haat aya aur muh na laga Rafale' can be said about the current PAF state of affairs.

I think another batch or two is not needed, I personally recommend another aircraft for the IAF and Indian Naval aviation fleet requirement. Most important, these guys are going to be so worried about the aircraft, they wont be trained to a level of a self designed fighter will get them to be.

Upgrade the HF-24. Full control and no stress can make wonders for now the pilots are living, instead of 'graving' their career. I know this sounds very far, upgrade a fighter that was retired in the 90s, whats the point it will be made into a platform which is totally composite, super maneuverable and stealth inclined but the fact of the problem can be killed by just doing that.

With two Kaveri delivering 162 KN wet total on a already proven, now composite airframe will get it to super cruise. Imagine a F - 35 cockpit setup for it, how uplifting it will be for the country and the pilots and aircrew that were assigned to the original.

Its a big high to possess such a great upgraded historic enemy killer just after IAF sent Mirages over the border. Wars won can make one dream of its return, stealth and beyond.

India will Never make the same error than with the Mirage 2000 : too small fleet. Another 36 planes will be ordered. Sure. Real question is after that.

 

[Armand2REP]

I'm obsolutely not sure a MMRCA2 Rafale to be UTTAM and Kaveri fitted.
Not time enough to qualify this new equipment, and too much cost and what about the size and weight of Kaveri?...
Maybe another batch after, in parallel.

If they place an order big enough to justify it, you can watch just how far they will bend. Of course it will be included as fulfilling an offset obligation.

 

[neeraj_]

Rafale is a fully operational platform. Bullet-proof even. The more US and their allies will test their F-35, the more nasty surprises they will get. Like the one in Japan.

I am not entering a debate Rafale vs Sukhoi .... probably one can write a book by just compiling hundreds of posts in this forum

Why didn't Europe bought Ragad then instead of F 35 ?

Chill bro can you justify its cost ?


Tc

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I'm obsolutely not sure a MMRCA2 Rafale to be UTTAM and Kaveri fitted.
Not time enough to qualify this new equipment, and too much cost and what about the size and weight of Kaveri?...
Maybe another batch after, in parallel.

The Rafale MMRCA2 will have made in India component spanning production timeline of 8 years. So, in that time, India will fit its own radar and engine. The "India specific enhancement" itself is to enable use of Indian items in rafale. Only the airframe design will be French and rest will be Indian in made in India Rafale

France will never let HAL install Kaveri and Uttam on the Rafale. They tend to be very possessive about their 'exported military equipment'. Also; they are very welcoming, and expensive so 'PAF ke haat aya aur muh na laga Rafale' can be said about the current PAF state of affairs.

Then India will never buy even a single rafale. India already had Su30 which is made in India. The only reason why Rafale was bought was because it could also guarantee to be made in India. Since France is unwilling to give technology for radar or engine, it is only logical that Indian radar and engine will be used. This wil be done without any French technology but solely on Indian technology. The basic condition for rafale purchase is that Indians must not be prohibited from modifying rafale.

MRCA to be fulfilled by Rafale. Of all planes in that category it has the best maneuverability, high TWR, low WL, SPECTRA EW (comparable to F 35 DAS), AESA radar operational unlike EF 2000 and also upgraded under F4.

But Rafale is inferior to Su30 in speed, range and maneuvering. So, if rafale has to be bought, it has to have terms at least at par with Su30.. So, it is not about rafale being good but Rafale giving good terms of make in India in terms of allowing integration of Kaveri and UTTAM.

It's a fact another batch of Rafale will cost less :indigenisation is paid, 2 air bases are upgraded, part of tool bench are already purchased. Quite all fixed costs are already paid.
36 more planes don't need more air base (even if two for 72 planes is short. But in France we found up to 3 sqd of 20 planes on a single base).

MMRCA2 was decided the very moment MMRCA1 for 36 rafale was signed. So, the deal is not separate in reality. Only thing was that India did not fully trust France and hence the deal of 150 had to be split into 2 parts. The second part would be given if the first part is fulfilled without any cheating in offsets. So, the airbase and other things are only secondary. IMO, the most important part is France allowing India to install Kaveri engine and UTTAM radar

 

[BON PLAN]

We do have other option for getting jet urgently.

But can you provide us some advantage of paying over 100 million dollar a piece for Rafale vs 50 million sukhoi 30 60 -70 million sukhoi pakfa or 80 - 90 million F 35 A ?

Or it is just like Indian aloo finger chaat minus the taste becoming French fries with double the price ?

Disponibility.
Efficency.

F35 price is all but sure. The real support cost is not known. The plane is not FOC.

The Rafale MMRCA2 will have made in India component spanning production timeline of 8 years. So, in that time, India will fit its own radar and engine. The "India specific enhancement" itself is to enable use of Indian items in rafale. Only the airframe design will be French and rest will be Indian in made in India Rafale

No.
The frame will be produced in India, but some highly critical components like FBW, Fadec cards, radar electronic core will remain from a french source.
India specific enhancements are for exemple : dedicated Spectra modes (low bands), new radar modes, new OSF, new weapons (Astra, Brahmos light...). NEVER a foreign engine.

 

[BON PLAN]

MMRCA2 was decided the very moment MMRCA1 for 36 rafale was signed. So, the deal is not separate in reality. Only thing was that India did not fully trust France and hence the deal of 150 had to be split into 2 parts. The second part would be given if the first part is fulfilled without any cheating in offsets. So, the airbase and other things are only secondary. IMO, the most important part is France allowing India to install Kaveri engine and UTTAM radar

I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT For MMRCA2.
But for new engine and radar it's just impossible. The adjustments to be made are too huge. Better to study from the beginning a new fighter.