Know Your 'Rafale'

[abingdonboy]

September 2016 Signatur of Rafale contract
October 2016 EoI to LM and Saab for SE MMRCA tender.

Clearly, they did everything for Rafale. :biggrin2:

I stand by what I said. That move didn’t hurt Rafale or LCA on bit.

Proposal never moved past RFI stage, no harm no foul.

 

[Prashant12]

HALs problem is not Rafale but the NDA government!

LUH tender cancelled to be provided to private players. Luckily Kamov rejected Reliance and chose HAL

India puts off purchase of 197 helicopters over bribery claim
https://www.livemint.com/Politics/F...ase-of-197-helicopters-over-bribery-clai.html

MMRCA - cancelled and replaced with new tenders under SPM, to prefer privat players. Luckily Boeing came back with a smart play, to include HAL and Mahindra

Smart ? :biggrin2:

Main partner of Boeing is Mahindra which has no expreince just like Reliance.

FGFA - cancelled and even though the production orders are replaced by LCA MK2 orders, the industrial benefit to jointly develop a NG fighter, would had been a huge gain for HAL

Indian Air Force not keen on stealth fighter with Russia
https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...with-russia/story-17X10snonrs4A6FwOJAxOI.html

MTA - cancelled, another huge loss for HAL in terms of experience, know how and potential export gains.

India-Russia Aircraft Deal Terminated

However, both sides were unable to agree on a detailed design of the new transport plane and the project stalled. One of the major stumbling blocks was the Russian selection of the engine for the aircraft. Another reason was coordination difficulties within the Russian design team.

DO 228 - HAL is producing, modifying and exporting the aircraft successfully for our forces, DRDO, foreign customers and are part of the global production chain (Make in India), which makes the civil version, a great chance for more orders and exports.

But suddenly the NDA government decided to dig up Saras for the same requirements again and waste time and money on a dead development?

Wow! Indigenous development is waste of time and money for you. :bs:

Saras is Indigenous development unlike DO 228 imported under license agreement.

Rafale distraction - when the government is in question on cronyism charges, by president Hollandes allegations. An Indian (part time) DM, uses HAL as a political pawn, to justify a deal, than nobody can explain. Shameful!

When Mukesh Ambani almost came close to sealing a deal for Rafale

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-rafale-offsets-deal/articleshow/65791781.cms


Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/65791781.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Truly Shameful indeed.

Rafale: Dassault had refused to partner with Bhandari headed OIS because of proximity to Robert Vadra

https://www.opindia.com/2018/09/raf...ded-ois-because-of-proximity-to-robert-vadra/

OIS promoter was Sanjay Bhandari, who was allegedly linked with Robert Vadra, Congress president Rahul Gandhi’s brother-in-law. As reported by Economic Times, Few rounds of talks had taken place between the two companies. But when Dassault came to know about Bhandari’s links with Vadra, they decided against partnering with his firm. Reportedly, the Vadra link was one of the main reasons Dassault refused the deal.

You are aware that the Gripen NG with the same engine passed the Leh trials without, that the same engine was selected for LCA MK2 and that the predecessor version of the engine had no issues during LCA tests at Leh either?

You are aware that the Gripen NG was rejected ?.

No it's not, because it's heavy class and IAF is clear about no more heavy class fighters, let alone amother type. The Air Chief confirmed 6 replies to the RFI, which means the same contenders as in the original MMRCA. Russia might have send a proposal for Su 35s too, especially if UAC replied for Mikoyan (and Sukhoi), but that's only a side proposal.

So how did Gripen NG which is light combat just Tejas MK1 manged participate in mmrca ?

And yes Su 35 is participating in 110 aircraft project.

Indian MoD receives 7 responses to its global information request to support a 110.

 

[Immanuel]

COMCASA doesn’t change anything. There willl still be common protocols and a centralisation of data inputs

You're a moron to think COMSACA won't change things. At the very least there will be several assets tapped into US/NATO networks which will feed in perhaps the most interesting set of data for practical use. The real reason it was signed is for expanded real time views of our entire neighborhood as well easier availability of technology.

 

[Sancho]

Keeping HAL’s unions happy is NOT in the national interest. Building up cross spectrum capacity in the private sector IS.

Well guess who benefits the most from HALs LCA or Do 228 productions? Privat Indian industry! Because HAL is outsourcing production parts. But that only is a solution for minor manufacting jobs, where is the private player, that has invested into own R&D in aviation so far? There is non, other than Mahindra, who took over foreign aviation companies, to get into the civil aviation market, but that's it!
India in the aviation field is dependent on HAL, as long as there are no alternatives like there are in the naval field, or in the howitzer field now.

That's why large scale aviation projects like MMRCA, FGFA and MTA were crucial not only for HAL, but also to improve the rest of the industry also nd push interest to own investments into the field. While basic offsets of the Rafale deal, won't make India any more capable, that's why the NDA government also needs the 114 fighter deal, to gain real ToT and know how, that the bad Rafale deal didn't provided us.

There is no denying that HAL has it's problems, but there is also no denying that India has no alternative today and that it's an outright lie, that this government is supporting HAL in any way!

 

[Sancho]

I stand by what I said.

Which only makes you stubborn, but not factually correct.

 

[Sancho]

Smart ? :biggrin2:

Main partner of Boeing is Mahindra which has no expreince just like Reliance.

Yes it is smart, because by choosing Mahindra, they chose an already established aerospace company (and you clearly don't know about that) + benefit from HALs experience and manufacturing capacities. They don't have to build everything from scratch as in the case of Reliance, which cuts costs and makes work easier.

Saras is Indigenous development unlike DO 228 imported under license agreement.

True, it's an indigenous development, that however has the same indigenous content as the Do 228 and that was planned as a replacement for the Do 228. But now the NDA government itself has ordered new Do 228 for the forces and DRDO and the civil version is getting approved for the Indian regional market, which means there is no market space left for Saras, nor even any manufacturing benefits. The export chances are even lower and would cut into HALs production order (less Make in India).

So how did Gripen NG which is light combat just Tejas MK1 manged participate in mmrca ?

Gripen C/D - light class
Gripen E - medium class
Gripen NG - tech demonstrator

 

[Immanuel]

The biggest problem for the SH in IAF, was and will remain flight performance! When the issue came up in the original MMRCA, Boeing and GE officials added the 414 EPE engine as a possible solution, but that engine remains part of the SH growth map only, is neither developed nor funded yet. So unless they offer some kind of joined development on the engine (which would be smart wrt AMCA), flight performance will be a hurdle.
For IN things are a bit different, since take off performance and suitability for INs carriers will be the main concern.

In July GE received a massive contract to repair / upgrade of over 700 components in the engines.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/23...ort_for_F_A_18__Growler_Aircraft#.W8Cz1k0UmUk

According to GE Aviation, the F414 Enhanced Engine is delivering expanded capabilities for next generation combat needs. With up to 18% more thrust and twice the horsepower of its predecessor, the F414 Enhanced Engine is poised to complete missions on time and on task.

Not worried about the engine's performance or availability, with overall thrust going up by 18%, the ASH's overall performance specially in the transonic regime should be better.

 

[BON PLAN]

Hehe, the important part is, that you never can prove me wrong! You can complain or distract as you usually do, but that's it. So I am happy with giving you a good read and educate you on facts or even on Rafale itself.

Dream ! You have nothing to explain me about Rafale. Specially technically.

 

[Sancho]

In July GE received a massive contract to repair / upgrade of over 700 components in the engines.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/23...ort_for_F_A_18__Growler_Aircraft#.W8Cz1k0UmUk

According to GE Aviation, the F414 Enhanced Engine is delivering expanded capabilities for next generation combat needs. With up to 18% more thrust and twice the horsepower of its predecessor, the F414 Enhanced Engine is poised to complete missions on time and on task.

Not worried about the engine's performance or availability, with overall thrust going up by 18%, the ASH's overall performance specially in the transonic regime should be better.

That's an modernisation contract for available engines, not a development contract for the EPE, also USN reportedly is more interested in the EDE version, with longer life and reduced costs, but no engine upgrade was part of the Block 3 funding.

 

[Sancho]

Dream ! You have nothing to explain me about Rafale. Specially technically.

:biggrin2: You know the reality and I still prefer to talk to you about Rafale, than to other fan boys. Just wished that you would be more reasonable and we could have useful discussions on Rafale.

 

[BON PLAN]

For logical understanding, even shaped intakes doesn't counter the effect of external payloads, as you only confirmed with the pics you added.



Nice try but still useless. F18 CFTs can replace the capacity of all 3 external fuel tanks, that it currently uses in missions.
Rafales CFTs have even less capacity than the supersonic fuel tanks, that it uses in A2A roles only.

I don't see any difficulty to put stealth containers under the rafale wings (SCALP shaped for exemple).
If France don't developp it, it's because they are of no use, for a reason or another (Spectra ...).

For CFT, the 2 on study can replace 2 x 1200 supersonic ones. And Rafale has less drag and need less power than SH, so at the end I think rafale despite less fuel has a better range.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafales CFTs have even less capacity than the supersonic fuel tanks, that it uses in A2A roles only.

NO .

 

[Sancho]

I don't see any difficulty to put stealth containers under the rafale wings (SCALP shaped for exemple).
If France don't developp it, it's because they are of no use, for a reason or another (Spectra ...)

There is no problem in shaping fuel tanks, weapon pods or even bombs if you want, but the fact remains, that it's an external payload!

Stealth = internal carriage of fuel and weapons!

F35 - internal carriage of fuel and weapons

Advanced F18 - full internal fuel, weapons partially covered in a pod

Flankers - full internal fuel, weapons between air intakes and wings

Advanced Rafale - weapons and fuel partially internal

And the fact that France does develop fully stealth Neuron UCAV and Rafale replacement, shows that SPECTRA is no alternative to stealth.

For CFT, the 2 on study can replace 2 x 1200 supersonic ones.

CFTs have 1150l each and that's far too low to replace the external tanks in any other role than A2A.

 

[Sancho]

For those who are interested to learn more about Mahindra =>

The Aerostructures business of Mahindra Aerospace is based in India and produces sheet metal parts and assemblies for leading global Aerospace and Defence majors. The business is operated by a wholly-owned subsidiary of Mahindra Aerospace – Mahindra Aerostructures Pvt. Ltd (MASPL).

A greenfield development, the MASPL facility was inaugurated in 2013. It is located east of Bengaluru and commenced serial deliveries in 2015. The facility holds AS9100 Rev D and NADCAP accreditations, along with approvals from several OEMs and Tier 1s. It now delivers more than 100,000 parts and assemblies per month to customer sites in Europe, North America, and Australia.

The facility is equipped with comprehensive capabilities to produce a variety of sheet metal components and assemblies, as well as for special processing of metal parts up to 4m in length (of aluminium, steel, titanium, and inconel).

The operating team in MASPL brings decades of industry experience honed through on-the-job training at Aernnova facilities in Europe and America before the factory went live. Today, these trained professionals form the nucleus of operations at MASPL, with the overall headcount in excess of 350 people.

https://www.mahindraaerospace.com/

 

[StealthFlanker]

@Sancho @smestarz @StealthFlanker

HAL experts worried about Rafale’s impact on its existence

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2018/i...about-rafale---s-impact-on-its-existence.html

Why do you keep tagging me in this thread? I don't care about the Rafale at all.

 

[smestarz]

Your screen name here is Flanker, and him being a Rafale fanboy will try to target people who question rafale or whose screen name is not Stealth Rafale,

Why do you keep tagging me in this thread? I don't care about the Rafale at all.

 

[smestarz]

Which HAL experts? They are named? HAL already has a lot on its plate.

@Sancho @smestarz @StealthFlanker

HAL experts worried about Rafale’s impact on its existence

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2018/i...about-rafale---s-impact-on-its-existence.html

 

[Armand2REP]

Which HAL experts? They are named? HAL already has a lot on its plate.

Why is it that HAL has a lot on it's plate? Their production efficiency is so low they have to buy fighters from Russia to stay on schedule. It turns out those fighters are cheaper than the ones they produce. I wonder where that money goes when they overcharge the MoD and pocket the difference. It sounds like something CAG should be investigating.

 

[Prashant12]

Yes it is smart, because by choosing Mahindra, they chose an already established aerospace company (and you clearly don't know about that) + benefit from HALs experience and manufacturing capacities.

What experience does Mahindra have ?
Established Mahindra aerospace company since when ?
How many fighters has Mahindra manufactured till date ?
Why not HAL just like SU 30 ?

They don't have to build everything from scratch as in the case of Reliance, which cuts costs and makes work easier.

Propaganda! Reliance is not manufacturing any rafales.

True, it's an indigenous development, that however has the same indigenous content as the Do 228 and that was planned as a replacement for the Do 228. But now the NDA government itself has ordered new Do 228 for the forces and DRDO and the civil version is getting approved for the Indian regional market, which means there is no market space left for Saras, nor even any manufacturing benefits. The export chances are even lower and would cut into HALs production order (less Make in India).

NDA government ordered new Do 228 for the forces for its operational requirement. Since saras project was stalled after crash in 2009 and now project was revived in 2016.

IAF will acquire 15 saras aircraft to support the project and more improved versions of it in future.

Do 228 will make india dependent on germany where as Saras make self reliant in aerospace. Understand basic commonsense.

Do 228 remains imported aircraft manufactured under license where saras is an indigenous effort. You cannot change this fact.

Gripen C/D - light class
Gripen E - medium class
Gripen NG - tech demonstrator

You did not answer my question. My question was how did Gripen NG/C/D participate in MMRCA 1.0 ?
Since MMRCA was supposed to mediu

 

[Prashant12]

@Sancho

Gripen C/D - light class
Gripen E - medium class
Gripen NG - tech demonstrator

You did not answer my question. My question was how did Gripen NG/C/D participate in MMRCA 1.0 ?
Since MMRCA was supposed to be medium class no ?