Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

Saab offered Gripen NG and it was production version as well for MMRCA. IF you still don't believe then just search on google.

I don't waste time with believes, I prefer facts!

 

[Armand2REP]

They don't have to, MoD does! HAL can't order fighters bypassing MoD, or away from IAFs orders.

The orders have already been made, HAL fills them as prime contractor.

 

[Prashant12]

I don't waste time with believes, I prefer facts!

Then provide your facts that Gripen NG was tech demonstrator, not a production version as you claim in MMRCA 1.0.

 

[BON PLAN]

http://www.thenorthlines.com/why-hal-wasnt-given-the-offset-contract-in-the-rafale-deal/

Why HAL wasn’t given the offset contract in the Rafale deal

On September 27, Union minister Babul Supriyo indicated that HAL lost out on the deal because it quoted 2.57 times more man-hours to build fighter jets. While speaking at a conference on public sector enterprises organised by the Confederation of Indian Industries (CII), he said HAL quoted “257 man-hours” for a job Dassault said could be done in “100 man-hours”. For the production of Rafael fighter jets, “when Dassault said they needed 100 man hours, HAL said they needed 257, so that is indeed a big factor,” he said.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale deal: Rahul a serial liar, manufacturer of fake news, says Goyal

https://www.business-standard.com/a...r-of-fake-news-says-goyal-118101300034_1.html

 

[BON PLAN]

@Sancho @smestarz : At the end, you will love it !

First Made for India Rafale set to soar this month

https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/first-made-india-rafale-set-soar-month

 

[smestarz]

Just a point, One does not simply order the planes like you said, And if you say its 40 then its more than the nos of Rafales that were ordered by Egypt and that took more than few years. So you mean to say that HAL directly orders planes from Sukhoi and that too without GoI knowing it? By this logic, Dassault is stupid, they should have maintained good friendship with HAL, and HAL would have ordered 100 Rafales. No? The logic does not really fit right? HAL is run with Indian bureaucracy, and you can imagine how much time it would need to order the Sukhois? Should be a few years.. Aircraft ordering is complicated, and HAL is one of the companies that is not equiped to negotiate. So at one point of time there would be Air force guys involved. Also when Payments are made or promised, big amount does not just go without the govt sanctioning it..Even for that matter, Dassault cannot pay millions of dollars without approval of the French govt.

They arrive in knock down kits and HAL assembles them instead of forging the parts like they are supposed to. HAL has import license to order these kits but no one is enforcing their indigenous content promises nor has anyone questioned where the difference in price of what they are charging the MoD is going to.

 

[BON PLAN]

However F 35 has far lower frontal RCS and greater IR stealth than Rafale

Lower RCS : OK. Far lower ? to be seen.

In IR, F35 has a huge IR trace, bigger than Rafale one. Why? because it is shaped as a truck so it need more thrust for the same speed. Why do you think F35 is limited to Mach 1.6 (if ever reached) with 18 tons engine when Rafale is mach 1.8 with 15T. Same about super cruise : F35 can't because it is not as aerodynamic.

So NO, the IR trace of F35 is not low.

And what about the fact that F35 has to open regularly its bay to refresh itself ? absolutely not good for the IR signature.

 

[BON PLAN]

Wrong, because I never questioend drag or range, my point was, that Rafales CFTs can't replace external fuel tanks in all missions, like the CFTs of F16, F18 and EF do, because of insufficient fuel capacity. That's why Rafale will always be dependent on external fuel and that's limits it's RCS reduction potential.
That's also why the Flankers with fully internal fuel, have better RCS reduction potential than Rafale, or why Neuron or a NG stealth fighter are necessary for French forces.

Why a rafale with 2 or 3 1200L external tanks can't do AtoG mission?
see pic : Mica + 4 x LGB or Hammer and 2 x 1200L tanks.

So the same config with 2 x CFT instead of 2 x 1200L has the same and probably more range.

Rafale in all exercises with F16, SH18, Gripen or EF take off first and land the later.

 

[Sancho]

The orders have already been made, HAL fills them as prime contractor.

And that's the point! HAL is contractor of orders requested by IAF and made by MoD, contrary to what you claimed earlier, that HAL ordered fighters on their own.

Then provide your facts that Gripen NG was tech demonstrator, not a production version as you claim in MMRCA 1.0.

Which again shows, that you completely lack even basic knowledge of the Gripen, to make an educated statement about it. You neither know which version is light or medium class, nor which version was just a tech demonstrator and you also don't know how Saab terms their single (A/C/E) and twin seat (B/D/F) Gripen production versions.

@Sancho @smestarz : At the end, you will love it !

Not really, since it's not the fighter that is the problem, but it's manufacturer that single handedly blocked negotiations for 3 years and put Indian security at risk. Just that the 36 Rafale deal, is simply a bad deal for India, because it didn't met our requirements.

 

[Prashant12]

Which again shows, that you completely lack even basic knowledge of the Gripen, to make an educated statement about it.

Don't change the topic and answer my question. Also for you Make in India more important then Made in India that speaks of knowledge you have!.

Then provide your facts that Gripen NG was tech demonstrator, not a production version as you claim in MMRCA 1.0.

You neither know which version is light or medium class, nor which version was just a tech demonstrator and you also don't know how Saab terms their single (A/C/E) and twin seat (B/D/F) Gripen production versions.

I know Saab offered Gripen NG/C/D which is light class for MMRCA 1.0.

 

[Sancho]

Why a rafale with 2 or 3 1200L external tanks can't do AtoG mission?

You can even use a Rafale with a single centerline tank in CAS missions if necessary, which only depends on the mission requirements for range and endurance, but as you know very well, that's not the standard configuration and of course not for heavier loads either.

You can try as much as you want, but you can't change the facts, that they don't have enough fuel capacity. They were meant in addition to the external fuel tanks, to further increase range, so unless newly designed CFTs will be developed, external tanks remain a necessity.

 

[Sancho]

I know Saab offered Gripen NG/C/D which is light class for MMRCA 1.0.

And that's the difference between "believes" and facts. :biggrin2:

 

[Sancho]

Nice pics from Egyptian Rafales

 

[Prashant12]

And that's the difference between "believes" and facts. :biggrin2:

So provide your facts that Gripen NG was tech demonstrator, not a production version as you claim in MMRCA 1.0

Why are you running away ? :biggrin2:

 

[BON PLAN]

Not really, since it's not the fighter that is the problem, but it's manufacturer that single handedly blocked negotiations for 3 years and put Indian security at risk.

Sancho, Your explanation could be nice only in the case of a Dassault empty log book. But in 2011+, Dassault was pushing hard to find its first export customer ! If Dassault, in these conditions, said no, it's REALLY because there was a deep risk (financially and in term of brand image). Some evidence has already been published about the quality and lead time failure of HAL.

 

[Sancho]

So provide your facts that Gripen NG was tech demonstrator,

Lol you can't even educate yourself on basics?

The Gripen NG development program was conceived by Saab back in late 2005 as an important stepping stone towards what is today known as Gripen NG (Next Generation). In this program many new fundamental systems and capabilities for Gripen NG are flight tested and demonstrated as a proof-of-concept as well as for risk mitigation reasons. These new systems and capabilities can also form the basis for further upgrades of the current Gripen C/D fleet...

https://saab.com/air/gripen-fighter...razilian/the-fighter/the-gripen-ng-programme/

 

[BON PLAN]

Just that the 36 Rafale deal, is simply a bad deal for India, because it didn't met our requirements

What 's the problem? The too small quantiity or the spec of the plane ?
In the first case, I agree (but it began in the same way of the SU30)
In the second case, it is the IAF choice ! And They have all the datas, for years, to justify their choice.

 

[BON PLAN]

You can try as much as you want, but you can't change the facts, that they don't have enough fuel capacity. They were meant in addition to the external fuel tanks, to further increase range, so unless newly designed CFTs will be developed, external tanks remain a necessity.

And you will never see a SH, with air to ground load, even with CFT, without external tank.

 

[Sancho]

's REALLY because there was a deep risk (financially and in term of brand image).

Of course there was a risk financially, the liability clauses! Dassault tried to avoid to be financially liable for their own mistakes!