Know Your 'Rafale'

[WolfPack86]

And here’s defence minister @NSitharaman at the Rafale line in France. That’s an airframe for the Indian Air Force.

 

[WolfPack86]

The Indian Air Force #Rafale fighter jets on the Dassault production line in France. @nsitharaman met top officials, workers, industrialists.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

And anyway, any mediocre economist will tell you disinvestment is essential to prudent financial management of an economy. Keeping HAL’s unions happy is NOT in the national interest. Building up cross spectrum capacity in the private sector IS.

This is not correct in case of critical sector like security and agriculture. These areas require highest reliability, even if it means lesser economic efficiency. Building capacity in private must not be at the expense of public sectors in these critical areas.

You're a moron to think COMSACA won't change things. At the very least there will be several assets tapped into US/NATO networks which will feed in perhaps the most interesting set of data for practical use. The real reason it was signed is for expanded real time views of our entire neighborhood as well easier availability of technology.

COMCASA will be judiciously used by India to get select technology only and not used carelessly. Depending on how India uses COMCASA technology, the implications will change

 

[patriots]

first flight of Indian rafale... tomorrow

 

[smestarz]

YES the CAG should be investigating it, But how does HAL bring in entire planes and no one sees what they import?

Why is it that HAL has a lot on it's plate? Their production efficiency is so low they have to buy fighters from Russia to stay on schedule. It turns out those fighters are cheaper than the ones they produce. I wonder where that money goes when they overcharge the MoD and pocket the difference. It sounds like something CAG should be investigating.

 

[Armand2REP]

YES the CAG should be investigating it, But how does HAL bring in entire planes and no one sees what they import?

They arrive in knock down kits and HAL assembles them instead of forging the parts like they are supposed to. HAL has import license to order these kits but no one is enforcing their indigenous content promises nor has anyone questioned where the difference in price of what they are charging the MoD is going to.

 

[Sancho]

What experience does Mahindra have ?

=>

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-751#post-1456274

Propaganda! Reliance is not manufacturing any rafales

Lack of knowledge on your part, because Reliance didn't even had the facilities for the Rafale offsets, Dassault needed to fund it first. While companies like Mahindra or Tata are already established in the aviation field and work with foreign OEMs for years.

Do 228 remains imported aircraft manufactured under license where saras is an indigenous effort. You cannot change this fact.

And that shows the limited understanding you have on the matter. Pride on an indigenous name tag doesn't create orders, or makes the aircraft be developed and certified faster.
HAL has the Do 228 to cover the defence and civil market today and support the Make in India campaign!

You did not answer my question. My question was how did Gripen NG/C/D participate in MMRCA 1.0 ?
Since MMRCA was supposed to mediu

Yes I did, by showing you which version is the medium class one. The proposal then and now was/is for Gripen E, but now the production version is available and because of Brazil, the fighter got more capable than the version proposed in MMRCA 1.0.

 

[Sancho]

YES the CAG should be investigating it, But how does HAL bring in entire planes and no one sees what they import?

HAL can't order fighters, only IAF/MoD can. The order of 42 was initiated by IAF, to cover crashed fighters and the early phase out of upgraded Mig 27s and just as the 40 MKIs before that order, it was added to the production line, not ordered from Irkut.

 

[Prashant12]

=>

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-751#post-1456274

Lack of knowledge on your part, because Reliance didn't even had the facilities for the Rafale offsets, Dassault needed to fund it first. While companies like Mahindra or Tata are already established in the aviation field and work with foreign OEMs for years

Lack of knowledge on your part, because Mahindra or Tata never had aviation field until they got offsets from C17, C130J, Apache etc. Same rules apples to reliance as well.

And that shows the limited understanding you have on the matter. Pride on an indigenous name tag doesn't create orders, or makes the aircraft be developed and certified faster.

:bs:

So India should keep importing Do 228 and waste forex reserves right ?

HAL has the Do 228 to cover the defence and civil market today and support the Make in India campaign!

Aim of Make in India is to make india self reliant & not import dependent on others.
Saars is in the same class as Do 228 which will meet requirements of military and civil market.

Do 228 Yes I did, by showing you which version is the medium class one. The proposal then and now was/is for Gripen E, but now the production version is available and because of Brazil, the fighter got more capable than the version proposed in MMRCA 1.0.

Lies! Saab offered Gripen NG which was light combat aircraft just like Tejas in MMRCA 1.0 & Gripen E was never tested by india as well.

 

[Sancho]

Aim of Make in India is to make india self reliant & not import dependent on others.

Lol, it's called Make in India, not Make for India!
The Make in India campaign is aimed at foreign production being diverted to India, to make India a manufacturing hub.

Lies! Saab offered Gripen NG which was light combat aircraft just like Tejas in MMRCA 1.0 & Gripen E was never tested by india as well.

As explained before, Gripen NG is a tech demonstrator, not a production version, but even that falls into medium weight class. So you not only understand the difference between NG and E, but also that the MTOW is the criteria for weight class. That's why Gripen C/D which was offered in the MRCA initially, was not enough anymore to participate in the MMRCA => which lead to Gripen E

 

[Armand2REP]

HAL can't order fighters, only IAF/MoD can. The order of 42 was initiated by IAF, to cover crashed fighters and the early phase out of upgraded Mig 27s and just as the 40 MKIs before that order, it was added to the production line, not ordered from Irkut.

You are incorrect, the IAF does not micromanage what HAL imports to fill the orders. That might be a solution to the problem however. They are already talking about putting Air Marshals to head LCA production to get it on track.

 

[Prashant12]

Lol, it's called Make in India, not Make for India!
The Make in India campaign is aimed at foreign production being diverted to India, to make India a manufacturing hub.

Which is better Make in India or Made in India ?

Don't tell me Make in India because its all about license manufacturing something india has been doing for decades.
Saras is Made in India hence its all about about self reliance.

As explained before, Gripen NG is a tech demonstrator, not a production version, but even that falls into medium weight class. So you not only understand the difference between NG and E, but also that the MTOW is the criteria for weight class. That's why Gripen C/D which was offered in the MRCA initially, was not enough anymore to participate in the MMRCA => which lead to Gripen E

:bs:

Saab offered Gripen NG and it was production version as well for MMRCA. IF you still don't believe then just search on google.

 

[BON PLAN]

CFTs have 1150l each and that's far too low to replace the external tanks in any other role than A2A.

You forget that CFT has less drag, so a 1150 CFT offer a greater range than a classical 1200 L tank.

 

[BON PLAN]

F35 - internal carriage of fuel and weapons

Not really.

euhhh... stealth = internal canon, no?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Not really.

euhhh... stealth = internal canon, no?

F 35A = INTERNAL GUN

F 35B/C = EXTERNAL STEALTH POD

 

[BON PLAN]

F 35A = INTERNAL GUN

F 35B/C = EXTERNAL STEALTH POD

So a F35 external canon is stealthy, but a Rafale external probe can't (Rafale haters propaganda).

And what about the ASRAAM and bobs under the wings ?
And what about the bays that are to be opened every 20 minutes to refresh the plane?

 

[vampyrbladez]

So a F35 external canon is stealthy, but a Rafale external probe can't (Rafale haters propaganda).

And what about the ASRAAM and bobs under the wings ?
And what about the bays that are to be opened every 20 minutes to refresh the plane?

F 35s are not infantry but SOF snipers. You have an F 15 or another F 35 as a bomb truck and you let the pathfinder F 35 designate targets and pass them on to weapons launched by F 15 / Bomb truck F 35. By Block 4/5 F 35 will carry 6 AIM 120D in internal bays and can go strictly for A2A.

Rafale is the only plane in 4th Generation that can sit at 5th Generation table due to inherent stealth (Very Low RCS) and SPECTRA EW suit to jam, deceive and C2C heavily contested airspace aka S 400. However F 35 has far lower frontal RCS and greater IR stealth than Rafale due to which a gun pod doesn't make as much of a difference compared to Rafale where external probe can add some RCS foot print.

In the future high resolution L Band radars will be available which will be able to triangulate location of fighter by reading wake of deflected RW waves. So by then 5th generation stealth will be superceded by hypersonic trend aka we will come full circle to 1960s.

 

[Sancho]

You forget that CFT has less drag, so a 1150 CFT offer a greater range than a classical 1200 L tank.

Wrong, because I never questioend drag or range, my point was, that Rafales CFTs can't replace external fuel tanks in all missions, like the CFTs of F16, F18 and EF do, because of insufficient fuel capacity. That's why Rafale will always be dependent on external fuel and that's limits it's RCS reduction potential.
That's also why the Flankers with fully internal fuel, have better RCS reduction potential than Rafale, or why Neuron or a NG stealth fighter are necessary for French forces.

 

[Sancho]

F 35A = INTERNAL GUN

F 35B/C = EXTERNAL STEALTH POD

Don't bother, he knows the facts, he just can't admit, that even a bad 5th gen fighter like F35, has a clear advantage - stealth.
Rafale as advanced as it is in terms of electronics, or EW, can't match that.

 

[Sancho]

You are incorrect, the IAF does not micromanage what HAL imports to fill the orders

They don't have to, MoD does! HAL can't order fighters bypassing MoD, or away from IAFs orders.