Know Your 'Rafale'

[Immanuel]

@Immanuel

You are aware that Super hornet failed the MRCA trials in Leh don't you?

Sure, but even the Rafale by the way needs additional mods to have cold start at Leh, just because it took off a few time during trials from LEH, doesn't mean it can do so consistently without additional mods (it's part of the 14 India specific enhancements which won't be part of the initial 36 deliveries, these enhancements will only be in place between 2022-2025). The Super Hornet for sure will need Mods for Leh so will any other aircraft that needs to be based there permanently.
https://indianexpress.com/article/i...nce-only-one-will-arrive-custom-made-5345837/

 

[DAC O DAC]

Since France does not really have conflict with any country, I just wonder why you need an aircraft carrier and 4 SSNs? Purely waste of your tax payers money.

Maybe it's why we don't have high end crisis.
And France has the 2nd (or 1st, I don't remember) deeper Economic Zone in the world.

 

[BON PLAN]

The French are just trying to develop 4th Gen Techs, I doubt if French really have mastered the 5th Gen tech, so 6th Gen,,, way far off,,..

= French bashing.
France just trying to developp 4th gen .... = YOU ARE AN IDIOT BRO, can't say onything else.

 

[BON PLAN]

YES you can worry about Su-57 being produced and Russian invasion

With just 12 planes ?

 

[Immanuel]

"WILL" so it don't exist yet.

The orders for Block 3 SH have been placed for both USN & Kuwait and work is already underway to deliver first 4 modified aircraft which will fly next year, much more than we can say about the F-4 Rafale which has no orders yet.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/u-s...ore-super-hornets-to-block-iii-configuration/
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2017/09/fa-18ef-super-hornet-combat-aircraft.html

Upgrades have been tested on existing aircraft steadily since 2013.

 

[Armand2REP]

Funny you say protectionist, but MRCA 1.0 was entirely a debacle due to Dassault. All the hogwash marketing promises of full ToT disappeared once it was magically made L-1

It is funny that I call Trump a protectionist?

 

[Sancho]

A very good news for Rafale !!!

@Sancho @StealthFlanker @smestarz : sorry for you....

With the S400 purchase, and the risk of US sanction, combined to average products (F16, SH18) means that the sole real opponent is EF.

Another flawed analysis by our local Rafale fan. :biggrin2:

First of all, the US already stated that they will provide exemptions for countries with close relations and they know they need India to balance China. Not to mention that if they sanction us, Tejas might be most effected, rather than the MMRCA tenders.

Secondly, not the EF is the real opponent for the Rafales anymore, but more cost-effective fighters!

IAF is forced by the government, to make the most out of low budgets, that's why we already see the pathetic cancellation of FGFA and replacing the planned orders with LCA MK2 instead.
or why we saw 36 Rafales + 114 SE MMRCA / MMRCA 2.0, instead of going for 126 Rafales or EFs under a G2G deal right away.

So as I keep saying, things are not the same as they were under the original MMRCA tender. Political and cost interests are the drivers now, even if the US shoots themselves out of the game (which I doubt), cost will remain a core issue and the capability of Rafale and EF come along with high costs too, that's simply not deniable!

And all this does not even include the political and cronyism issues of the Rafale deal. But since nothing will happen till after the elections, we can't do much than sit and wait anyway.

 

[Sancho]

Do add Su-35 that might be in the race too

No it's not, because it's heavy class and IAF is clear about no more heavy class fighters, let alone amother type. The Air Chief confirmed 6 replies to the RFI, which means the same contenders as in the original MMRCA. Russia might have send a proposal for Su 35s too, especially if UAC replied for Mikoyan (and Sukhoi), but that's only a side proposal.

 

[Sancho]

You are wrong.
A secret demonstrator were built with a completely new front part (probably new air intakes, new nose...

New intakes (probably for higher thrust engines in the F4 or MLU), doesn't make Rafale stealthy. The RCS reduction potential of Rafale is limited by the use of external payloads. Even if weapon pods similar to the Advanced Super Hornet would be developed, there is still the problem of fuel since the CFTs doesn't have the required capacity, as the CFTs of the SH.
The Flanker by design come with full internal fuel carriage, which is indeed a crucial advantage, so all they need are weapon pods, to reduce the RCS to a good extend. Add coatings, materials and a modern EWS (like it was done with the Su 35) and the only the RCS gets considerably lower, from the current MKI level.

Rafale (EF and Gripen E), certainly come with the best electronics and modern fighter designs, but they are not stealth fighters and the RCS reduction as explained is limited to certain extends.

 

[Sancho]

EVERYTHING Modi govt has done since 2016 with Parrikar and Modi has been consistent in Rafale and S400 corner.

September 2016 Signatur of Rafale contract
October 2016 EoI to LM and Saab for SE MMRCA tender.

Clearly, they did everything for Rafale. :biggrin2:

 

[Sancho]

As for customization, ASH wouldn't need much

The biggest problem for the SH in IAF, was and will remain flight performance! When the issue came up in the original MMRCA, Boeing and GE officials added the 414 EPE engine as a possible solution, but that engine remains part of the SH growth map only, is neither developed nor funded yet. So unless they offer some kind of joined development on the engine (which would be smart wrt AMCA), flight performance will be a hurdle.
For IN things are a bit different, since take off performance and suitability for INs carriers will be the main concern.

 

[Sancho]

@Immanuel

You are aware that Super hornet failed the MRCA trials in Leh don't you?

You are aware that the Gripen NG with the same engine passed the Leh trials without, that the same engine was selected for LCA MK2 and that the predecessor version of the engine had no issues during LCA tests at Leh either?

All the engines needed, were minor modifications, to make them able to restart. The bigger problem is the flight performance compared to possible enemy fighters.

 

[BON PLAN]

@Sancho @smestarz @StealthFlanker

HAL experts worried about Rafale’s impact on its existence

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2018/i...about-rafale---s-impact-on-its-existence.html

 

[BON PLAN]

Secondly, not the EF is the real opponent for the Rafales anymore, but more cost-effective fighters!

LOL. You are really funny.
it's distracting to read you after a hard day's work! you write a lot of nonsense but it's distracting :biggrin2:

 

[BON PLAN]

New intakes (probably for higher thrust engines in the F4 or MLU), doesn't make Rafale stealthy. The RCS reduction potential of Rafale is limited by the use of external payloads. Even if weapon pods similar to the Advanced Super Hornet would be developed, there is still the problem of fuel since the CFTs doesn't have the required capacity, as the CFTs of the SH.
The Flanker by design come with full internal fuel carriage, which is indeed a crucial advantage, so all they need are weapon pods, to reduce the RCS to a good extend. Add coatings, materials and a modern EWS (like it was done with the Su 35) and the only the RCS gets considerably lower, from the current MKI level.

Rafale (EF and Gripen E), certainly come with the best electronics and modern fighter designs, but they are not stealth fighters and the RCS reduction as explained is limited to certain extends.

For air intakes : The new ones may not be perfectly curve

For the rest : too easy.

CFT capacity : SH is far more fuel greedy.

 

[Sancho]

@Sancho @smestarz @StealthFlanker

HAL experts worried about Rafale’s impact on its existence

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2018/i...about-rafale---s-impact-on-its-existence.html

HALs problem is not Rafale but the NDA government!

LUH tender cancelled to be provided to private players. Luckily Kamov rejected Reliance and chose HAL

MMRCA - cancelled and replaced with new tenders under SPM, to prefer privat players. Luckily Boeing came back with a smart play, to include HAL and Mahindra

FGFA - cancelled and even though the production orders are replaced by LCA MK2 orders, the industrial benefit to jointly develop a NG fighter, would had been a huge gain for HAL

MTA - cancelled, another huge loss for HAL in terms of experience, know how and potential export gains.

DO 228 - HAL is producing, modifying and exporting the aircraft successfully for our forces, DRDO, foreign customers and are part of the global production chain (Make in India), which makes the civil version, a great chance for more orders and exports. But suddenly the NDA government decided to dig up Saras for the same requirements again and waste time and money on a dead development?

Rafale distraction - when the government is in question on cronyism charges, by president Hollandes allegations. An Indian (part time) DM, uses HAL as a political pawn, to justify a deal, than nobody can explain. Shameful!

 

[Sancho]

LOL. You are really funny.
it's distracting to read you after a hard day's work! you write a lot of nonsense but it's distracting :biggrin2:

Hehe, the important part is, that you never can prove me wrong! You can complain or distract as you usually do, but that's it. So I am happy with giving you a good read and educate you on facts or even on Rafale itself.

 

[Sancho]

For air intakes : The new ones may not be perfectly curve

For logical understanding, even shaped intakes doesn't counter the effect of external payloads, as you only confirmed with the pics you added.

CFT capacity : SH is far more fuel greedy.

Nice try but still useless. F18 CFTs can replace the capacity of all 3 external fuel tanks, that it currently uses in missions.
Rafales CFTs have even less capacity than the supersonic fuel tanks, that it uses in A2A roles only.

 

[abingdonboy]

But COMSACA changes things, IN/IAF/IA will tap into US based Link-16 and other datalinks for a much wider real time regional picture. Obviously with many incoming US made products (C-130J, C-17s, P-8Is, Apaches, MH-64, Chinooks, Guardians) into inventory as well S-400, Rafale etc. There will be grand assimilation of data coming from various sensors cross spectrum.

COMCASA doesn’t change anything. There willl still be common protocols and a centralisation of data inputs

 

[abingdonboy]

HALs problem is not Rafale but the NDA government!

LUH tender cancelled to be provided to private players. Luckily Kamov rejected Reliance and chose HAL

MMRCA - cancelled and replaced with new tenders under SPM, to prefer privat players. Luckily Boeing came back with a smart play, to include HAL and Mahindra

FGFA - cancelled and even though the production orders are replaced by LCA MK2 orders, the industrial benefit to jointly develop a NG fighter, would had been a huge gain for HAL

MTA - cancelled, another huge loss for HAL in terms of experience, know how and potential export gains.

DO 228 - HAL is producing, modifying and exporting the aircraft successfully for our forces, DRDO, foreign customers and are part of the global production chain (Make in India), which makes the civil version, a great chance for more orders and exports. But suddenly the NDA government decided to dig up Saras for the same requirements again and waste time and money on a dead development?

Rafale distraction - when the government is in question on cronyism charges, by president Hollandes allegations. An Indian (part time) DM, uses HAL as a political pawn, to justify a deal, than nobody can explain. Shameful!

HAL has nothing to fear. They have assured business in the form of 100s of LCH/LUH/ALH/IMRH, the upgrade of MKIs not to mention Saras (military) and work on RTA and dozens of foreign OEM contracts (Boeing, Airbus, LM etc).


And anyway, any mediocre economist will tell you disinvestment is essential to prudent financial management of an economy. Keeping HAL’s unions happy is NOT in the national interest. Building up cross spectrum capacity in the private sector IS.