Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

F/A-18 will definitely co-ordinate better with P-8I because thats what USN does use, Forgot?
So, F/A-18 for India, would be as per indian requirements. Since the Americans highly customised P-8I for India I do not foresee much difficulty for customising F/A-18 either.
One advantage with F/A-18 is folding wings, which Rafale does not have. And if Rafale M has to have folding wings that will take a lot of time and money for Development.

Also since Indian navy had given the requirement that they need folding wings plane so that they can carry more planes, but if Indian navy ignores this, they really would have to give a very good explaination as to why they softened the stand on this, Good luck with that

could.... just could.
Co ordination use L16 and L22. Rafale is equiped. And probably Indian will request a own datalink, and not a NATO one.
So a bad argument.

DoD

 

[smestarz]

Now the Rafale fanboys are adding "secret recipe" I guess soon you will have Masala Rafale and other flavours also, and will come in 2 4 and 8 packs !! and yes a Soupy one is on the way.

Do you think that it is so simple to get a new design all of a sudden in such short periods of time? there may be some modifications but overall will remain very close. Low RCS needs certain special design which such hasty modifications can't provide. Look at how long Dassault is taking for mere software upgrades for India. It says that it will need 5-6 years for it and the software will be later used as plug and play upgrade in 2022-23

 

[smestarz]

Thats the problem with French, when you face the reality, they simply roll over,.
There are credible links where senior member of Sukhoi is on record to inform about availability

Well its in English, and the French being French, I am sure you will not understand half of it, so do ask someone who knows English to translate for you

There is a possibility that the availability of the fleet could touch the magical figure of 75 percent. Chishchevoy said that the Russian proposal ten years ago when the fleet was young was to appoint Sukhoi as the single supplier responsible for the serviceability of the fleet and 75 percent would be `guaranteed'.

//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/50075387.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Didnt the GOI now use this Russian suggestion to ensure the availability Rafe for Rafale is higher.. Surely if its possible for Sukhoi should be possible for Dassault... Else do I see Dassault peeing their pants?

always the same bla bla ....

 

[smestarz]

hahahaha hilarious, After you are faced with links that prove you are lying, you move from F/A-18 to F-35 hahahahaha
Incidentally, US Navy will upgrade its F/A-18 Hornets, specially as that would ensure that F/A-18 and F-35 will work together. F/A-18 are not being replaced for the next 10 years at least.

Surely USN is committed to F-35, but that does not mean all the Naval F/A-18 wll be replaced overnight.

@Immanuel Maybe it will, maybe it won't. The US is committed to F-35 so an aircraft without a buyer is DOA..

 

[smestarz]

One hint is that Kuwait is not asking to buy Rafales , correct? America sells its planes to Allies and partners. Kuwait is an important partner, They fought an entire gulf war for Kuwait. Americans rarely have issues to sell their planes. On the other hand, the French were stuggling to sell Rafales. The time they came close is when India declared Rafale as L1, till then no one wanted to touch Rafale. How many years is Rafale in operations and how many orders it had prior to 2014 ? That should tell you a lot.
Also F/A-18 has sold more than 1400 of model C and D. Model E/F is mainly limited to America and Australia. Rafale units produced are fractions as those of F/A-18 produced.

Since you did talk of Cakes, F/A-18 sells like cakes when America prefers to offer to sell. With all the "cakes" they sold, they made a good profit, But on other hand, Dassault is suggesting that it has better cakes but no one wanted them. Dassault was offering to pay for someone to buy their cakes..

If Rafale is soo wonderful and more capable than F/A-18, why after so many years, its order book not even 1000 ? Seems the French ranting has become Stale..Rafale is very good in the proverbial French pond, But then when it comes out of pond, it faces a different reality

@Immanuel If you can get 28 units for $1.5 billion it sounds like a no brainer. I wonder why they aren't selling like hot cakes.

 

[WolfPack86]

Got to read the report but this looks damning.

 

[WolfPack86]

In response to fresh storm over @Mediapart story which caims Dassault Aviation documents show India’s Reliance was a hard trade-off for the Rafale deal, @Dassault_OnAir issues statement, says it has ‘freely chosen’ to partner with India’s Reliance group.

 

[abingdonboy]

F/A-18 will definitely co-ordinate better with P-8I because thats what USN does use, Forgot?
So, F/A-18 for India, would be as per indian requirements. Since the Americans highly customised P-8I for India I do not foresee much difficulty for customising F/A-18 either.
One advantage with F/A-18 is folding wings, which Rafale does not have. And if Rafale M has to have folding wings that will take a lot of time and money for Development.

Also since Indian navy had given the requirement that they need folding wings plane so that they can carry more planes, but if Indian navy ignores this, they really would have to give a very good explaination as to why they softened the stand on this, Good luck with that

Irrelevant.

P-8I and all foreign made platforms use the exact same Indian designed and made datalnks, IFF and communication equipment as all other Indian systems. They fit perfectly into a common C4I network so this is an entirely moot point.

India isn’t Pakistan where there aren’t mini forces inside mini forces unable to communicate with one another. Every asset can link with each other

Navy never said they need folding wings.

 

[abingdonboy]

Got to read the report but this looks damning.

It was a total lie, nothing damning here at all.

 

[vampyrbladez]

It was a total lie, nothing damning here at all.

The Gandu family is spreading lies and misinformation. This was a briefing to French unions about why the Nagpur plant needed to be made as an offset for deal. This was not company specific. Funny thing is if this is all Congress has then in 2019 they will face bloodbath.

 

[Armand2REP]

One hint is that Kuwait is not asking to buy Rafales , correct? America sells its planes to Allies and partners. Kuwait is an important partner, They fought an entire gulf war for Kuwait. Americans rarely have issues to sell their planes. On the other hand, the French were stuggling to sell Rafales.

France also fought a gulf war to save Kuwait, the same war the Americans fought. France has issues to sell their planes because the US wants to slap ITAR restrictions on French products because they are protectionists. Think about that for India the next time they want to buy something from USA. Once you become reliant on US kit you become their b*tch.

The time they came close is when India declared Rafale as L1, till then no one wanted to touch Rafale. How many years is Rafale in operations and how many orders it had prior to 2014 ? That should tell you a lot.
Also F/A-18 has sold more than 1400 of model C and D. Model E/F is mainly limited to America and Australia. Rafale units produced are fractions as those of F/A-18 produced.

India was the last one to order Rafale, Egypt was the first, Qatar the second. India was waiting to see if it would get any exports before they committed to it.

Since you did talk of Cakes, F/A-18 sells like cakes when America prefers to offer to sell. With all the "cakes" they sold, they made a good profit, But on other hand, Dassault is suggesting that it has better cakes but no one wanted them. Dassault was offering to pay for someone to buy their cakes..

There are three countries that ordered Rafale, only two have ordered Super Hornets.

If Rafale is soo wonderful and more capable than F/A-18, why after so many years, its order book not even 1000 ? Seems the French ranting has become Stale..Rafale is very good in the proverbial French pond, But then when it comes out of pond, it faces a different reality

The F/A-18 entered service in 1980, it is a legacy aircraft not even comparable to the Rafale.

 

[Armand2REP]

Because everyone knows this is BS.

You don’t buy just the jets when you buy modern day aircraft let alone warfighting aircraft. Add another $100-200m PER aircraft for spares, training infra, base infra, weapons, maintenance contracts, PBL etc. Nothing is cheap anymore if you want to do it right.

Besides the US makes you pay for EVERY little detail, every little customisation etc through the nose.

Even if it is just the unit price you would think a fully updated Super Hornet at $53 million would be the best selling budget aircraft in the world.

 

[abingdonboy]

Even if it is just the unit price you would think a fully updated Super Hornet at $53 million would be the best selling budget aircraft in the world.

It’s a lie. RAAF (already operates F-18) ordered their latest F18 SH batch for $250m/each

 

[Immanuel]

Because everyone knows this is BS.

You don’t buy just the jets when you buy modern day aircraft let alone warfighting aircraft. Add another $100-200m PER aircraft for spares, training infra, base infra, weapons, maintenance contracts, PBL etc. Nothing is cheap anymore if you want to do it right.

Besides the US makes you pay for EVERY little detail, every little customisation etc through the nose.

I did say it's the flyaway price, add another 150 million and it's still cheaper than the Rafale.

As for customization, ASH wouldn't need much (except for integration of Desi PGMs eventually) since it already has a proven reliable helmet, a host of cheaper and proven weapons like Paveway 1/2, Harpoons, CBU-105SFW etc which are already in inventory. If IAF really wants to keep it simple it could ask for Meteor integration and be done with it.

https://indianexpress.com/article/i...nce-only-one-will-arrive-custom-made-5345837/

As if France is not charging an arm and leg for customizations sometimes for basic things. Towed Decoys, Helmets, Spice integration, Leh Cold Start, Indian specific RWR, etc won't even arrive before 2022

The ASH comes standard with towed decoys and a great helmet as standard with a wider set of weapons already integrated on it. The Large Panel Display, new gen IRST, stealthy weapons pods, uprated engine, new mission computers, new data links all make it a lot more net centric, 360 situational awareness, and not to forget billions in savings with engine commonality with LCA MK-2

 

[Immanuel]

France also fought a gulf war to save Kuwait, the same war the Americans fought. France has issues to sell their planes because the US wants to slap ITAR restrictions on French products because they are protectionists. Think about that for India the next time they want to buy something from USA. Once you become reliant on US kit you become their b*tch.
India was the last one to order Rafale, Egypt was the first, Qatar the second. India was waiting to see if it would get any exports before they committed to it.
There are three countries that ordered Rafale, only two have ordered Super Hornets
The F/A-18 entered service in 1980, it is a legacy aircraft not even comparable to the Rafale.

Don't forget the Rafale didn't sell for a decade into operational service. I doubt any of the deals now made were clean in anyway. These orders are a result of a campaign of pay offs (incl. India) after a decade or more of irrelevance.

Funny you say protectionist, but MRCA 1.0 was entirely a debacle due to Dassault. All the hogwash marketing promises of full ToT disappeared once it was magically made L-1

 

[mayfair]

@Immanuel

You are aware that Super hornet failed the MRCA trials in Leh don't you?

 

[Immanuel]

Irrelevant.

P-8I and all foreign made platforms use the exact same Indian designed and made datalnks, IFF and communication equipment as all other Indian systems. They fit perfectly into a common C4I network so this is an entirely moot point.

India isn’t Pakistan where there aren’t mini forces inside mini forces unable to communicate with one another. Every asset can link with each other

Navy never said they need folding wings.

But COMSACA changes things, IN/IAF/IA will tap into US based Link-16 and other datalinks for a much wider real time regional picture. Obviously with many incoming US made products (C-130J, C-17s, P-8Is, Apaches, MH-64, Chinooks, Guardians) into inventory as well S-400, Rafale etc. There will be grand assimilation of data coming from various sensors cross spectrum.

 

[DAC O DAC]

SH 3 is actually in many aspects better than Rafale, the Radar is bigger & better, comes with Block 2 IRST, lovely new displays, CFTs as well stealth pods, Distributed Targeting Processor Network (DTP-N), Tactical Targeting Networking Technology (TTNT) data link, overall RCS when loaded will be less than Rafales. Also coming with F414, it will save billions in commonality with LCA mk-2 and potentially with IN's carrier fleet. Also, it comes ready deploying many weapons in IAF's inventory such as Paveways, CBU-105 SFW, Harpoon. It is also cheaper than the Rafale in both fly away and operational costs.

https://thedefensepost.com/2018/06/28/boeing-kuwait-f-18-contract/

I would not count this aircraft out till this is over. It's obvious you have little clue how India works, HAL a PSU with over 30K employees can't be punished so easily especially when they support virtually the entire air force, a simple strike for a week would grind the IAF to a halt and MOD won't be able to do shit. Besides to cut out the only company in India that has actually put entire airframes in many cases from raw material stage together is rather silly. None of the other newbies can match the experience locally.

Radar bigger ? Yes. Radar better? no source.
block2 IRST? Rafale is OSF equipped.
CFT : No Rafale customer required it. But they have been studied and have flown.
RCS ? LOOOOOL
F414 : all the Tejas will not been equipped. And IN don't want the N LCA so far....
More weapons integrated ? Yes.
Cheaper? You are speeking of a version that don't exist, so no price available.

 

[DAC O DAC]

SH3 and different upgrades of it have been in testing for quite some time now, seems like you're sleeping, Kuwait and USN will start receiving them soon.

"WILL" so it don't exist yet.

 

[DAC O DAC]

one nuclear powered carrier which any given time is in dry dock for repairs

= Fake news.
It's not because 20 years ago this carrier suffered from some "youth" breakdowns that it doesn't sail perfectly since.
It proved to make 5 months cruise in 2015.