Know Your 'Rafale'

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

RCS of rafale is less than 0.1m2 from front side

This is electronic stealth. Rafale was not 5th generation plane. It was never designed to be stealth. It doesn't have the design for it. There were some modifications after prototype rafale A to get stealth but these were not complete redesign. So, there is significant RCS for rafale. Spectra of rafale reduces a lot of RCS and makes it 0.1-0.05 from original RCS of 1

 

[BON PLAN]

Dassault at par with US? hahahahaha.. The Americans have many 4th Gen planes and 3 5th Gen planes. French are yet empty of funds to try and develop a 5th gen plane on its own and hence the need for European fighter.
BTW India has a mock up of 5th gen plane which we plan to buy and use... (and we dont have our own engine yet) France has prototype of UCAV but they dont have the funds to produce and use it

1) It was a Rand corporation report. Ask Rand why they wrote that.
2) compare what is comparable : USA is 7x bigger than France, and use 2 x more GDP for denese than us ! But with so few money we have one nuclear carrier, 4 deterrence subs, 6 SSN, 150 rafale etc.... just compare with some others
3) 5th gen ? The next franco-German fighter will be a 6th one. And designed by Dassault ! (instead of Airbus)

 

[BON PLAN]

S-400 is ordered for INDIAN AIR FORCE .. The Air defence is under IAF.
IAF has problem with Russian jets, but IAF top brasss was part of the problem, not solution.
Sukhoi had offered contract where they could assure 75% availability. but IAF refused. Now the Indians having signed deals with OEM will ensure higher availability rate.

Now, Rafale does not have a shape that can be stealthy. Rafale depends on electronic stealth. Just plane vs plane Su-30 MKI is superior in operations than Rafale With super Sukhoi upgrade, whatever was lacking in Su-30 MKI wll be upgraded . Maybe also with latest EW pack of Russia / Israel

always the same bla bla ....

 

[DAC O DAC]

S-400 is ordered for INDIAN AIR FORCE .. The Air defence is under IAF.
IAF has problem with Russian jets, but IAF top brasss was part of the problem, not solution.
Sukhoi had offered contract where they could assure 75% availability. but IAF refused. Now the Indians having signed deals with OEM will ensure higher availability rate.

Now, Rafale does not have a shape that can be stealthy. Rafale depends on electronic stealth. Just plane vs plane Su-30 MKI is superior in operations than Rafale With super Sukhoi upgrade, whatever was lacking in Su-30 MKI wll be upgraded . Maybe also with latest EW pack of Russia / Israel

You are wrong.
A secret demonstrator were built with a completely new front part (probably new air intakes, new nose... the plane was flying only at night to avoid to be spyed). Results were very nice, but not deployed so far because the actual rafale don't need it. Maybe in the futur.

 

[DAC O DAC]

Why would GoI punish HAL? Does not work that way, not with this govt.
HAL is not lazy but are limited by technology and also changing specs of IAF

that is why parrikarrammed Mk1A down the IAFs throat.

For MMRCA. as per me the chances of Rafale dwindled as being political hot potato,
Nay could take F/A-18 as that could be pushed by USA that it will co-ordinate better with P-8I that Indian navy operates.

Why?
Because HAL is a nest of loafers. The rafale MII during MMRCA collapsed because they need 2.7 more time to built a plane than Dassault ! And HAL don't have the habit to respect its engagement... at the end they they might have needed 3.5 times more hours
DoD

 

[DAC O DAC]

This is electronic stealth. Rafale was not 5th generation plane. It was never designed to be stealth. It doesn't have the design for it. There were some modifications after prototype rafale A to get stealth but these were not complete redesign. So, there is significant RCS for rafale. Spectra of rafale reduces a lot of RCS and makes it 0.1-0.05 from original RCS of 1

NO.
Between Rafale A, the demonstrator of agility, and the rafale B/C/M, the french government add a secret specification about RCS, at the special request of UAE. Actual rafale use the general arrangment od the demonstrator, which give its nice handling qualities, but not a single shape is common. Same for the materials used.

Spectra add to reduce this figure, but the plane is naturaly low observable.

DoD

 

[DAC O DAC]

Nay could take F/A-18 as that could be pushed by USA that it will co-ordinate better with P-8I that Indian navy operates.

could.... just could.
Co ordination use L16 and L22. Rafale is equiped. And probably Indian will request a own datalink, and not a NATO one.
So a bad argument.

DoD

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Do you think that it is so simple to get a new design all of a sudden in such short periods of time? there may be some modifications but overall will remain very close. Low RCS needs certain special design which such hasty modifications can't provide. Look at how long Dassault is taking for mere software upgrades for India. It says that it will need 5-6 years for it and the software will be later used as plug and play upgrade in 2022-23

NO.
Between Rafale A, the demonstrator of agility, and the rafale B/C/M, the french government add a secret specification about RCS, at the special request of UAE. Actual rafale use the general arrangment od the demonstrator, which give its nice handling qualities, but not a single shape is common. Same for the materials used.

Spectra add to reduce this figure, but the plane is naturaly low observable.

DoD

 

[DAC O DAC]

Do you think that it is so simple to get a new design all of a sudden in such short periods of time? there may be some modifications but overall will remain very close. Low RCS needs certain special design which such hasty modifications can't provide. Look at how long Dassault is taking for mere software upgrades for India. It says that it will need 5-6 years for it and the software will be later used as plug and play upgrade in 2022-23

A plane always looks like a plane ! but you can't see some details, and absolutely can't imagine externaly xhat are the materials used (Aluminium finishing or composite? What kind of composite? Is there some RAM inside ? ...)

Short period? between first flight of rafale A and prototyp of Rafale C : 5 years. (1986 - 1991) and betwwen the prototyp of rafale C and first serial one : 8 years (1991 - 1999). SHORT PERIOD YOU SAY ?

The rafale for India will be delivered with a full F3R standard. The indian spec are on study until 2016 and all will be delivered in 2022 : 6 years. 6 years to integrate new israeli equipments and weapons (release tests are time consuming), a new IRST, a new sat datalink, a more powerfull Spectra and probably some other secret things (linked to deterrence ? ASTRA?)

DoD

 

[Immanuel]

1) I agree for Apache, P8I, drones, MH60. less clear for NASAM.

2) This is why SH3 will not be chosen. Because SH3 is not so impressive, and because the US has already been well served by 1).
Add that Indian govt want to create a new private aerospace champion to move the a** of HAL. They are tired with lazy HAL. HAL will be "punished" through MMRCA2.


India takes the best of all its old and faithful or newbie and opportunistic suppliers : S400 from Russia, Rafale from France, and some good products from USA (not all the best, but all very good stuff)

SH 3 is actually in many aspects better than Rafale, the Radar is bigger & better, comes with Block 2 IRST, lovely new displays, CFTs as well stealth pods, Distributed Targeting Processor Network (DTP-N), Tactical Targeting Networking Technology (TTNT) data link, overall RCS when loaded will be less than Rafales. Also coming with F414, it will save billions in commonality with LCA mk-2 and potentially with IN's carrier fleet. Also, it comes ready deploying many weapons in IAF's inventory such as Paveways, CBU-105 SFW, Harpoon. It is also cheaper than the Rafale in both fly away and operational costs.

https://thedefensepost.com/2018/06/28/boeing-kuwait-f-18-contract/

I would not count this aircraft out till this is over. It's obvious you have little clue how India works, HAL a PSU with over 30K employees can't be punished so easily especially when they support virtually the entire air force, a simple strike for a week would grind the IAF to a halt and MOD won't be able to do shit. Besides to cut out the only company in India that has actually put entire airframes in many cases from raw material stage together is rather silly. None of the other newbies can match the experience locally.

 

[Armand2REP]

@Immanuel SH3 doesn't exist yet, just as Rafale F4 which is superior to it.

 

[Immanuel]

@Immanuel SH3 doesn't exist yet, just as Rafale F4 which is superior to it.

SH3 and different upgrades of it have been in testing for quite some time now, seems like you're sleeping, Kuwait and USN will start receiving them soon.

 

[Armand2REP]

SH3 and different upgrades of it have been in testing for quite some time now, seems like you're sleeping, Kuwait and USN will start receiving them soon.

Rafale F4 upgrades have been in testing for quite some time now, seems like you're sleeping as SH3 won't achieve IOC for several years.

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale F4 upgrades have been in testing for quite some time now, seems like you're sleeping as SH3 won't achieve IOC for several years.

It will received IOC way before F4. Besides F4 is still not as good as the SGH Block 3, it doesn't have a large panel display, no stealth pods, the radar is still going to be small and still an unimpressive weapons choice. Not to mention the SH Block will feature new mission computers and data links far superior to anything on drawing board for the Rafale.

https://defence-blog.com/news/france-plan-to-develop-a-next-generation-rafale-f4-fighter.html
Stop lying, F-4 will only fly in 2023.

While Block 3 SH upgrades have been in test since 3 years.

 

[Armand2REP]

@Immanuel Maybe it will, maybe it won't. The US is committed to F-35 so an aircraft without a buyer is DOA..

 

[Immanuel]

@Immanuel Maybe it will, maybe it won't. The US is committed to F-35 so an aircraft without a buyer is DOA..

https://www.janes.com/article/81380/boeing-contracted-to-build-super-hornet-fighters-for-Kuwait

By the 28 Block 3 SH for Kuwait have a fly away price of 1.5 billion

As revealed in a simulator contract announced earlier in June, the Kuwaiti Super Hornets will be built to the US Navy’s (USN’s) latest Block 3 standard. Taking elements of Boeing’s previously touted International Roadmap and Advanced Super Hornet, the Block 3 will include upgrades to the Raytheon AN/APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; an Elbit Systems large area display (LAD) ‘glass’ cockpit and next-generation avionics; an infrared search and track (IRST); ‘shoulder-mounted’ conformal fuel tanks (CFTs); Integrated Defensive Electronic Counter Measures (IDECM); and new General Electric F-414-400 enhanced engines.

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/05/navy-boeing-tout-block-iii-super-hornet-as-partner-for-f-35/

Over the next 5 years, 116 new build Block 3 SHs with 24 ordered already. A yearly block buy will continue.

Nuff said

 

[Armand2REP]

@Immanuel If you can get 28 units for $1.5 billion it sounds like a no brainer. I wonder why they aren't selling like hot cakes.

 

[abingdonboy]

@Immanuel If you can get 28 units for $1.5 billion it sounds like a no brainer. I wonder why they aren't selling like hot cakes.

Because everyone knows this is BS.

You don’t buy just the jets when you buy modern day aircraft let alone warfighting aircraft. Add another $100-200m PER aircraft for spares, training infra, base infra, weapons, maintenance contracts, PBL etc. Nothing is cheap anymore if you want to do it right.

Besides the US makes you pay for EVERY little detail, every little customisation etc through the nose.

 

[abingdonboy]

Oh and FYI everyone can stop dreaming about F-35 for India now S400 is ordered. US has made it very clear they won’t sell their top of the line strategic tech to a nation that also operates S400 for fear of the signature being logged and added into the radar signature library that Russia can then gain access to at some point.


I dare say this will also have a negative effect for the F18 “ASH”’s chances for India.


EVERYTHING Modi govt has done since 2016 with Parrikar and Modi has been consistent in Rafale and S400 corner.

Dirty games are going on behinds the scenes no doubt (rumours that CONgress leaders met a US OEM’s officialise germany before latest Rafale scam accusations appeared) but this govt is doing a good job of withstanding all assaults.

If 2019 goes the right way all this will be put to bed and in 2020 more Rafales will
Be ordered- do not doubt that.

 

[smestarz]

Does RAND corp know all?

YES you have one nuclear powered carrier which any given time is in dry dock for repairs, and thats why the Rafale M on the very same carrier are flying from Land bases, need I say more? India is much bigger than France yet the french military spending is just behind India. Since France does not really have conflict with any country, I just wonder why you need an aircraft carrier and 4 SSNs? Purely waste of your tax payers money.

The French are just trying to develop 4th Gen Techs, I doubt if French really have mastered the 5th Gen tech, so 6th Gen,,, way far off,,..

We know how the last European fighter program ended right? There are many planes that are Designed. but Where are the buyers? The french will keep the Rafale for next 50 years and since French do not have border conflicts with anyone they can be comfortable with that. So, in a way, Europe does not really have either the need or the market for 5th or 6th Gen plane. The French are stuggling to buy even their own 4th Gen plane.

Seems that Europe is dreaming big .but the reality is quite different, Europe does not have the funds, the need for a 5th or 6th Gen plane. YES you can worry about Su-57 being produced and Russian invasion etc, and that fear in a way should either push Europe towards more development, or collapse due to over funding on military.
So good luck with your 5th or 6th Gen plane..

Seems Airbus is smart they just dont want to develop something that would be shelved where as Dassault has a good experience in that.

1) It was a Rand corporation report. Ask Rand why they wrote that.
2) compare what is comparable : USA is 7x bigger than France, and use 2 x more GDP for denese than us ! But with so few money we have one nuclear carrier, 4 deterrence subs, 6 SSN, 150 rafale etc.... just compare with some others
3) 5th gen ? The next franco-German fighter will be a 6th one. And designed by Dassault ! (instead of Airbus)