Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Flying low also has the risk of facing QRSAMs and MANPADs which are not such a risk for high flying planes.

Yes,
But what are the country with a perfectly plate ground ? Not China. Not Pak, Not India.
And a mission is never made without a strong battlefield view, in which QRSAM are located.
Manpads don't have the prior notice to fire a very low flying plane. It's good for Helo and A10 like planes, and only when manoeuvring.

 

[BON PLAN]

India is getting some Jaguars, Mirage2000 etc.

Parrikar had made it clear that India does not need Rafale but can make do with Su30. So, it is clear that the utility of Rafale was in the offsets, not the plane itself

1) No Mirage 2000 for you. Only Jag.
2) Parrikar is a politician. He tried and succeed to bargain. IAF need that plane, and they are the real aware authority.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

1) No Mirage 2000 for you. Only Jag.
2) Parrikar is a politician. He tried and succeed to bargain. IAF need that plane, and they are the real aware authority.

France to provide Mirage 2000 aircraft at dirt cheap prices to the IAF

Seeking to bolster its Mirage-2000 fighter jet fleet, India is getting two of these at a dirt-cheap price of Rs 16 crore per aircraft from France. The two aircraft would be later upgraded to the highest standards by the HAL.

The French are offering the planes at Euro 2 million per aircraft and the cost of transporting the planes to India would be around Euro one million. So, at Euro five million (approx Rs 40 crore), India will get two aircraft with a life of 3,000 hours left in them, government sources told MyNation.

The aircraft would also help in utilising the upgrade kits that had been ordered during the Mirage 2000 upgrade contract with France. India had a fleet of 51 Mirages but the number came down to 49 after the loss of two planes in quick succession around 2012-13, the sources said.
The two Mirages coming from France would help in making up the fleet strength back to 51.

India is also getting a fleet of 32 Jaguar aircraft, which are supposed to be used as spares to support the current fleet of Jaguar fighters operated by India. The 100 Jaguar aircraft strong fleet would also help in maintaining force levels and combat the delay in procuring jets beyond the 4 plus generation fighter aircraft such as Rafale due to the Congress government impeding the decision-making.

Dassault Aviation already has sent its proposal for IAF’s Tender for 110 fighter jets and have also responded to Indian Navy’s requirement for 57 carriers based fighter jet. First Rafale fighter jet is currently going through integration in France and Indian technicians and engineers are currently undergoing training in France to induct this jet in September 2019.

 

[BON PLAN]

France to provide Mirage 2000 aircraft at dirt cheap prices to the IAF

Seeking to bolster its Mirage-2000 fighter jet fleet, India is getting two of these at a dirt-cheap price of Rs 16 crore per aircraft from France. The two aircraft would be later upgraded to the highest standards by the HAL.

The French are offering the planes at Euro 2 million per aircraft and the cost of transporting the planes to India would be around Euro one million. So, at Euro five million (approx Rs 40 crore), India will get two aircraft with a life of 3,000 hours left in them, government sources told MyNation.

The aircraft would also help in utilising the upgrade kits that had been ordered during the Mirage 2000 upgrade contract with France. India had a fleet of 51 Mirages but the number came down to 49 after the loss of two planes in quick succession around 2012-13, the sources said.
The two Mirages coming from France would help in making up the fleet strength back to 51.

India is also getting a fleet of 32 Jaguar aircraft, which are supposed to be used as spares to support the current fleet of Jaguar fighters operated by India. The 100 Jaguar aircraft strong fleet would also help in maintaining force levels and combat the delay in procuring jets beyond the 4 plus generation fighter aircraft such as Rafale due to the Congress government impeding the decision-making.

Dassault Aviation already has sent its proposal for IAF’s Tender for 110 fighter jets and have also responded to Indian Navy’s requirement for 57 carriers based fighter jet. First Rafale fighter jet is currently going through integration in France and Indian technicians and engineers are currently undergoing training in France to induct this jet in September 2019.

OK. First time I read this information.
But it's only 2 planes !

In france the sole M2000 "available" are first gen Mirage 2000C (only air to air, with a old gen radar : RDM or RDI) and M2000N (nuke version, with no credible valor in air to air).
The first are very tired.
The second will not be released or are not so interesting except for training (because nuke equipped and with a blind radar in AtoA)

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

OK. First time I read this information.
But it's only 2 planes !

In france the sole M2000 "available" are first gen Mirage 2000C (only air to air, with a old gen radar : RDM or RDI) and M2000N (nuke version, with no credible valor in air to air).
The first are very tired.
The second will not be released or are not so interesting except for training (because nuke equipped and with a blind radar in AtoA)

The Mirage 2000 will be upgraded by HAL in India after it is acquired

 

[BON PLAN]

Amid Rafale row, HAL’s 3-year delay in Sukhoi rollout raises concerns; company says delivery on schedule


https://indianexpress.com/article/i...ay-in-sukhoi-rollout-raises-concerns-5381852/

 

[mayfair]

Stop posting hit jobs on our own companies. Stick to Rafale.

 

[Armand2REP]

Amid Rafale row, HAL’s 3-year delay in Sukhoi rollout raises concerns; company says delivery on schedule


https://indianexpress.com/article/i...ay-in-sukhoi-rollout-raises-concerns-5381852/

So after all of these years HAL has only produced 33 MKI?

 

[smestarz]

I guess you do not understand english well like Bon Plan...
Shall try to explain...

• 3-year delay in production of 33 aircraft from the first four contracts

So there is delay of 3 years to complete the entire production of 272 planes, Also as per the time when the entire production was to be completed.. say Today was the estimated day for producing the last of the 272 planes and the production is not complete, so. by that way, They have produced 33 planes less than earlier estimated.
Thus by logic, HAL is supposed to produce the 33 planes in next three years.

So after all of these years HAL has only produced 33 MKI?

 

[Armand2REP]

I guess you do not understand english well like Bon Plan...
Shall try to explain...

• 3-year delay in production of 33 aircraft from the first four contracts

So there is delay of 3 years to complete the entire production of 272 planes, Also as per the time when the entire production was to be completed.. say Today was the estimated day for producing the last of the 272 planes and the production is not complete, so. by that way, They have produced 33 planes less than earlier estimated.
Thus by logic, HAL is supposed to produce the 33 planes in next three years.

This is what it says...

In the case of Sukhoi Su-30 MKI, 50 fighter jets were supplied in “flyaway condition” by Russia as part of the direct contract with India, and HAL was contracted to deliver 222 more — under licensed production — in six different contracts. The first four contracts were for a total of 140 aircraft, while two additional contracts were for another 40 and 42 aircraft, respectively.

Of the contracts totalling 140 aircraft, HAL is yet to produce 33, sources said. But the public sector company has directly procured some aircraft from Russia and delivered them to the IAF to bridge the gap. These deliveries were from the two additional contracts, thereby ensuring that 188 of the 222 aircraft have been given to the IAF, sources said. For the current production year, sources said, 12 aircraft are scheduled but only one has been produced so far.

“If these Russian aircraft were not procured by HAL, the delay in delivery would be five years, not just three years. The full set of 140 aircraft were to completely delivered by 2014-15 but are still awaited,” sources said.

 

[BON PLAN]

I guess you do not understand english well like Bon Plan...
Shall try to explain...

• 3-year delay in production of 33 aircraft from the first four contracts

So there is delay of 3 years to complete the entire production of 272 planes, Also as per the time when the entire production was to be completed.. say Today was the estimated day for producing the last of the 272 planes and the production is not complete, so. by that way, They have produced 33 planes less than earlier estimated.
Thus by logic, HAL is supposed to produce the 33 planes in next three years.

At least we understand you .
It's more than enough.

 

[BON PLAN]

HAL is supposed to produce the 33 planes in next three years.

33 in 3 years. What a feat ! Very impressive. HAL in all its splendor.

 

[Immanuel]

People shouldn't go into HAL's record without a clue of the issues that it faced. Before the Overhaul facility came up, regular MKIs were also being overhauled at the same plant thus eating into capacity. IAF too was complacent holding insignificant value in Spares. Hence, by 2014 serviceability and availability was low with half of the fleet grounded. HAL can only do so much when the MOD is slow and highly inefficient. The Russians too have been slow with plenty of stalling tactics. While full-tot is a word we flout about, a lot of the transfer had been tough with hard won negotiations.

HAL's delivery capacity from Nashik increased only after the Overhaul facility came up, new spares agreement was signed, 10 times more amount of spares were to be held by IAF at BRDs and bases. While is why Peace time availability now hovers around 75% while having capacity to go 90% during war time for atleast 4 weeks.

 

[BON PLAN]

People shouldn't go into HAL's record without a clue of the issues that it faced. Before the Overhaul facility came up, regular MKIs were also being overhauled at the same plant thus eating into capacity. IAF too was complacent holding insignificant value in Spares. Hence, by 2014 serviceability and availability was low with half of the fleet grounded. HAL can only do so much when the MOD is slow and highly inefficient. The Russians too have been slow with plenty of stalling tactics. While full-tot is a word we flout about, a lot of the transfer had been tough with hard won negotiations.

HAL's delivery capacity from Nashik increased only after the Overhaul facility came up, new spares agreement was signed, 10 times more amount of spares were to be held by IAF at BRDs and bases.

OK.
How many people work in HAL ?

 

[Immanuel]

33 in 3 years. What a feat ! Very impressive. HAL in all its splendor.

Funny for many years, before Rafale had any export orders (I mean I remember it had no exports for a decade or more) I remember a time not too long ago when Dassault was producing 11 Rafales in a year i.e 33 in 3 years. Seems like old age is rotting away your memory.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ree-years-if-india-buys-idUSKBN0O30ZI20150518

HAL was delivering new aircraft while overhauling another dozen or more aircraft in a year at that time.

 

[Immanuel]

OK.
How many people work in HAL ?

Over 32,000, roughly 3 times more than Dassault. While maintaining a much wider portfolio of products than Dassault.

 

[BON PLAN]

Funny for many years, before Rafale had any export orders (I mean I remember it had no exports for a decade or more) I remember a time not too long ago when Dassault was producing 11 Rafales in a year i.e 33 in 3 years. Seems like old age is rotting away your memory.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ree-years-if-india-buys-idUSKBN0O30ZI20150518

HAL was delivering new aircraft while overhauling another dozen or more aircraft in a year at that time.

Indeed, 11/year was the smaller Rafale production rate. And some, with you, were laughing. So it's my turn to laugh a little

But how many people are they in HAL. to compare with the 11000 of Dassault. Dassault also produce 70 Falcon/year and make a lot of overhaul (Rafale M 01 to 10 , Mirage 2000D, Mirage 2000-5 for india, Falcon for french navy....)

 

[BON PLAN]

Over 32,000, roughly 3 times more than Dassault. While maintaining a much wider portfolio of products than Dassault.

thanks for your answer (not seen before my previous answer).
Portfolio ? Give it to me please.

 

[Immanuel]

HAL supports virtually all aircraft (avionics, airframe, spares, engines) in IAF's inventory all the Migs 21/27, Jags, Mirages, MKIs, Hawks, Dhruv, Cheetak, Rudra helos etc. While Dassault did overhaul a few Mirages for India, HAL does the rest. Same goes for Mig-29s, Jags, MKI and other.

As said, it's a company that supports a wider set of products over a wider set of specializations in it's portfolios. Dassault is essentially an airframer.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

thanks for your answer (not seen before my previous answer).
Portfolio ? Give it to me please.

HAL makes avionics, engines, helicopters, trainers, Do228, Hawk-i, MiG21 & services all the planes and aircrafts in indian inventory