Know Your 'Rafale'

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Delete this message. It is a duplicate

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

ASMPA is a 500km range missile. not in a 100% low profile mission for sure.
Difference?
1) Brahmos is made to carry a far heavier load. And french nuclear device is more advanced so the nuc warhead is lighter than an indian equivalent in yield.
2) ASMPA came after the ASMP, with a range in low profile of 300 to 350km. We also made big progress in stato tech.
3) AMSPA (as ASMP) has a flying body, when Brahmos rely on wings. There is a difference in aerydynamismView attachment 28274

Payload for Brahmos is also 200-300kg, not any higher than ASMP. It is not possible for 900kg missile to go 500km even if it was a ballistic missile. Only possibility is that it is a subsonic cruise missile. That makes ASMP less powerful than Brahmos.

Also, Brahmos does not have wings as its supersonic speed needs dragless body. ASMP has wings, again which sows that it is subsonic missile rather than supersonic cruise missile. Show me one supersonic missile which has such distinct wings:

 

[BON PLAN]

Payload for Brahmos is also 200-300kg, not any higher than ASMP. It is not possible for 900kg missile to go 500km even if it was a ballistic missile. Only possibility is that it is a subsonic cruise missile. That makes ASMP less powerful than Brahmos.

Also, Brahmos does not have wings as its supersonic speed needs dragless body. ASMP has wings, again which sows that it is subsonic missile rather than supersonic cruise missile. Show me one supersonic missile which has such distinct wings:

These are not wings, just fins. No wings : the air intakes give max of the portance.
Subsonic : NO. It 's a mach 3 in high altitude missile.
the 500km range in in high profile flight. In all low altitude it's far less (100 km?) and less speed (mach 2 ?)
other possible difference : the type of fuel used (maybe not as efficient in the two cases).

Brahmos : You don't see wings ? and fins ?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

These are not wings, just fins. No wings : the air intakes give max of the portance.
Subsonic : NO. It 's a mach 3 in high altitude missile.
the 500km range in in high profile flight. In all low altitude it's far less (100 km?) and less speed (mach 2 ?)
other possible difference : the type of fuel used (maybe not as efficient in the two cases).

Brahmos : You don't see wings ? and fins ?

View attachment 28399

Brahmos has much smaller fins for its body length. The fins of ASMP is about 20% as long as the missile itself. Brahmos fins are like fletchings of an arrow

 

[mayfair]

One must also remember that it's not just Dassault with the offsets but also Safran and MBDA who are providing the engine and weapons systems respectively. Safran offsets include the ongoing Kaveri rejuvenation programme, I do not have details at hand about MBDA offsets.

I am not sure if Thales are also included along with Safran and MBDA as well, after all radar and avionics is their domain.

 

[sorcerer]

http://www.defproac.com/?p=4516

 

[sorcerer]

http://www.defproac.com/?p=4516

 

[BON PLAN]

Brahmos has much smaller fins for its body length. The fins of ASMP is about 20% as long as the missile itself. Brahmos fins are like fletchings of an arrow

???
the fins 20% as long as the missile ? NO. (see in red)
The wings (in blue) are so small. It's the air intakes that are wings.

 

[BON PLAN]

One must also remember that it's not just Dassault with the offsets but also Safran and MBDA who are providing the engine and weapons systems respectively. Safran offsets include the ongoing Kaveri rejuvenation programme, I do not have details at hand about MBDA offsets.

I am not sure if Thales are also included along with Safran and MBDA as well, after all radar and avionics is their domain.

Sure Thales is on track for Offset.

 

[Immanuel]

Some months ago you or one of your friends explained that a supersonic frecnh deterrence missile, with terrain following , mach3+, 500km range AND STEALTH ATTRIBUTES ASMPA has no chance against a S400.
now a non stealthy Brahlos is the hell weapon....
explain me why it's not OK for the first and OK for the second (except of course that one is indian and not the other)

ASMP-A is not a terrain hugging cruise missile which flies between 5-10m unlike the Brahmos which is. S-400 can handle it. Besides, ASMP-A is not available to India so WTF is your point?

 

[Immanuel]

ASMPA is a 500km range missile. not in a 100% low profile mission for sure.
Difference?
1) Brahmos is made to carry a far heavier load. And french nuclear device is more advanced so the nuc warhead is lighter than an indian equivalent in yield.
2) ASMPA came after the ASMP, with a range in low profile of 300 to 350km. We also made big progress in stato tech.
3) AMSPA (as ASMP) has a flying body, when Brahmos rely on wings. There is a difference in aerydynamismView attachment 28274

Brahmos is a lot more maneuverable on any day. Seeker tech on Brahmos is a also a lot more advanced allowing for a complete terrain hugging flight, targeting of well hidden targets behind deep mountains and valleys.

 

[Immanuel]

Brahmos can be a deterrence vector, but there is no evidence it is on track. I just say that.

To have the similar weapon with classical warhead and nuclear warhead is a risk. When you are gesticulating with a only nuclear weapon, it has a sens for a potential threat. In the other case you can't send a clear message. And even worst : a classical salvo can be seen as a nuclear one, with a clear risk of escalation.

As far as optics, it doesn't matter. You seem to think the enemy will actually see such an attack coming be it conventional or nuclear?

Brahmos will pulverize the target way before they are actually detected in 99% of the cases. Why on earth should India keep it's missiles strictly single mode use only while virtually every cruise missiles in Chinki or Puki inventory is nuke capable?

 

[hit&run]

As if IAF is going to give you all the exact details of it's nuclear capability, SFC has already started getting MKI (fact), Brahmos's range has been increased and it's navigation fine tuned and meanwhile they have been adding more terminal maneuvers to it's ability (fact), The requirement for 40 aircraft under SFC was launched already in 2010 and Brahmos modifications that was starting on the MKI further got delayed due to several major mods needed on the aircraft including structural, avionics, FBW and nuclear hardening. Hence, we saw a delay in the aircraft getting ready for Brahmos tests. 2 existing MKI were used for mods and testing while 40 new build aircraft are in delivery. By 2015/16 tests were underway and now we have several aircraft already in inventory that can deliver a nuke payload with the Brahmos. No one is going to point this out explicitly. It's just the same case with all Ballistic Missiles in inventory, their disclosed range is X, but real range is usually X + atleast 30% more.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/inter...c-super-weapon-capability/article12556559.ece

My premise was based on carrying and dropping a nuclear weapon using jets. Pakistan has assigned F-16s for this job.

As per your claim, India has added a new dimension by using an Air born nuclear cruise missile.

I am not too sure if Air born cruise missile which is not tested enough and no proof of nuclear fuse synched with its cruise profile and the software can be treated as reliable and potent nuclear deterrence asset.

I won't call it a Jingo fantasy because it is too good to be true and I would myself love it to be the case.

MKIs upgraded to hardened its frame were purely for carrying heavier Single Brahmos. EMP protection is a standard upgrade that every Jet has.

MKI with its longer air born time, larger frame thus large RCS, requiring pristine airstrip condition and theatre with the minimum required air superiority make me doubt if it will be the first SFC choice. Probably a makeshift or contingency.

Please mind my objection or doubts are with Nuclear tipped Brahmos, I believe MKI are capable to drop the bomb.

I can be wrong; as you said, there will be ambiguity for all the good reason.But I will stick to my old school of thought for the time being.

If I may add Rafale has better T/W ratio than MKI. Distrusting its weight carrying capabilities is unfounded.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I am not too sure if Air born cruise missile which is not tested enough and no proof of nuclear fuse synched with its cruise profile and the software can be treated as reliable and potent nuclear deterrence asset.

Why do you think that India will go and announce this to everyone openly? Did India tell you that Agni-5 has been tested with nuclear fuse? These things are implied by itself. India never claimed that Brahmos is not nuclear capable through any official source in the first place to make any further assumptions

 

[hit&run]

Why do you think that India will go and announce this to everyone openly? Did India tell you that Agni-5 has been tested with nuclear fuse? These things are implied by itself. India never claimed that Brahmos is not nuclear capable through any official source in the first place to make any further assumptions

Yes, We have tested and posted videos of it.

Now would you mind bringing your patronizing tone many notches down?

You know Lund about anything but showing off that you know all. Look at your joining date and mine. You gotta read a lot before telling me how to imply.

Last time you used strong adjectives when I simply said wishful thinking.

Trust me you are dickhead who made fool of himself by saying China is ahead of France in technology.

 

[BON PLAN]

ASMP-A is not a terrain hugging cruise missile which flies between 5-10m unlike the Brahmos which is. S-400 can handle it. Besides, ASMP-A is not available to India so WTF is your point?

Does Brahmos have a terrain following radar? I don't think so. So if Brahmos is terrain following capable, ASMPA can also do it (thanks to a digitalized map and the inertial navigation system).

Sure ASMPA in very low flying mission can't reach 500km ! Perheaps it's the case of Brahmos (the only one than can explain why it is so heavy. If not, it's not a so impressive missile).

No, no one will never have access to ASMPA.

My point ? : read previous post.

 

[BON PLAN]

Brahmos is a lot more maneuverable on any day. Seeker tech on Brahmos is a also a lot more advanced allowing for a complete terrain hugging flight, targeting of well hidden targets behind deep mountains and valleys.

In your mouth, all that is french is :
costly,
non efficient,
non agile,
non clever,
non compliant,

So is ASMPA.....

Your opinion is always unsupported, so one more or less....

Good day, Mister No.

 

[hit&run]

Does Brahmos have a terrain following radar? I don't think so. So if Brahmos is terrain following capable, ASMPA can also do it (thanks to a digitalized map and the inertial navigation system).

Sure ASMPA in very low flying mission can't reach 500km ! Perheaps it's the case of Brahmos (the only one than can explain why it is so heavy. If not, it's not a so impressive missile).

No, no one will never have access to ASMPA.

My point ? : read previous post.

Heavier Brahmos means more miles and there is strong evidence that its actual range hasn't been disclosed.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Yes, We have tested and posted videos of it.

Now would you mind bringing your patronizing tone many notches down?

Where has Brahmos been stated to be non-nucelear. No one is saying that Brahmos has not been tested. I am only saying that you have no reason to claim that Brahmos is non-nuclear.

This was your statement:

I am not too sure if Air born cruise missile which is not tested enough and no proof of nuclear fuse synched with its cruise profile and the software can be treated as reliable and potent nuclear deterrence asset.

 

[BON PLAN]

Heavier Brahmos means more miles and there is strong evidence that its actual range hasn't been disclosed.

probably !