Know Your 'Rafale'

[sorcerer]

Indian govt proposed Reliance Defence as partner in Rafale: French media quoting Hollande
The defence ministry said it was verifying reports that quote former French president Hollande as stating that the Indian government insisted on a particular firm as offset partner for the Dassault Aviation in the Rafale deal.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...e-says-govt/story-AYHRjf0qk2wlOQPJWNsvsJ.html

you know why? because indian governement try to find a way to energize and shake HAL. And in a big country as India, 2 planes manufacturers is not too much.

Seriously, that Hollande is high on something. He went back on his statement in less than 24 hours.
Must have made mucho money on spoiling it politically.

 

[Enquirer]

@BON PLAN @Neil
@Willy3

Hollande's statements have already been turned down by the current French government!

It's obvious that Hollande is trying to throw Modi/India under the bus to save his own skin.
Hollande is under fire that HE personally favored Reliance as Dassault's offset partner, because Reliance financed his girlfriend's movie. Hollande is desperate to show that he had no say in the matter & saying that 'India' recommended Reliance!

Hollande is so shaken up with the possibility of criminal charges against him that he's lost all sense of logic!!!
In a government-to-government contract (that explicitly states that the French companies are free to choose any Indian company), Hollande is in violation if he even 'passed on' Modi's recommendation over to Dassault!!

Hollande may or may-not have acted with corrupt intention in recommending or not-getting-involved-at-all; but the fact remains that the only clearest possible quid-pro-quo appears between that of Hollande and Reliance (& Hollande is clearly shaken by that appearance)!

Even if both Modi and Hollande are completely innocent, the possibility of Reliance funding Hollande's girlfriend's movie with a corrupt intent to influence Hollande is a very strong possibility (even if Dassault teamed up with Reliance purely based on merit)

Corrupt Congress politicians and the dumb Indian journalists don't understand the logic at all. They're all alarmists with a selfish intent!!

Just as I had predicted: Hollande's initial statement in the interview obliquely implicated himself despite his callous attempt to throw Modi under the bus. As such, he corrected it in the next interview that "he didn't receive any pressure" from Modi & that he has no knowledge if Dassault received any pressure to choose Reliance!!!

It's pretty clear that Hollande was desperate to deflect the blame directed at him during the first interview that he callously tried to dump the hot potato on someone else - but it ricocheted back!

 

[Immanuel]

.... India's tri-services strike force is planning to acquire 40 fighter planes capable of delivering nuclear weapons. The SFC has submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up two dedicated squadrons of fighter aircraft which will act as a mini-Air Force. This will be the first time that the SFC, which at present depends on the Indian Air Force for delivering nuclear weapons under its command, will have its own aerial assets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Forces_Command

paki and chinese worry is understood

Sorry to disappoint you guys but 36 Rafale are not meant for SFC. SFC has already begun taking deliveries of the modified MKI of which it has 42 on order. Brahmos deployed on the MKI is the IAF's chief Nuke delivery vehicle. 216 missiles are on order, one can easily expect to have around 25% of these missiles nuke tipped.

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2015/04/...d_sukhoi_is_bad_news_for_indias_enemies_42687

Rafale for now is meant for conventional air offense and deep strike roles. The Chinese are not worried because of Rafale but because of the nuke armed MKI.

Why do you think Brahmos's range is being increased or it's being taught new terminal maneuvers? Current AF version can be used to take out targets 450km+ away. This range will increase over the next block to over 700km+

 

[hit&run]

Sorry to disappoint you guys but 36 Rafale are not meant for SFC. SFC has already begun taking deliveries of the modified MKI of which it has 42 on order. Brahmos deployed on the MKI is the IAF's chief Nuke delivery vehicle. 216 missiles are on order, one can easily expect to have around 25% of these missiles nuke tipped.

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2015/04/...d_sukhoi_is_bad_news_for_indias_enemies_42687

Rafale for now is meant for conventional air offense and deep strike roles. The Chinese are not worried because of Rafale but because of the nuke armed MKI.

Why do you think Brahmos's range is being increased or it's being taught new terminal maneuvers? Current AF version can be used to take out targets 450km+ away. This range will increase over the next block to over 700km+

I am not convinced that Brahmos on MKI will be nuclear capable probably Tactical nukes but that is again a futile exercise when we put it under the test of nuclear deterrence doctrine.

Though I agree modified MKI will be a capable platform but not as good as Rafale to do deliver strategic nuclear strike package.

If I am not wrong Mirage2K are assigned to SFC for the same purpose which Rafale will take over when they retire.

 

[scatterStorm]

another LOL

1m² is the RCS of Mirage 2000.
Rafale RCS is far better. far ! from front it is under 0,01m².

Doesn't matter anymore, if you have current gen OLS it can be detected within 50km range. So does with all other jets whether it's F22 or a stuffed made up jets look like 5th gen ... J20s.

However you can just detect them, currently there's no solution to fire a homing missile based on OLS tracking data, all you can do is track it but it can be resourceful given all other planes in the formation will knew the location of the foe jet.

Source: https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-fighter-jets-intercept-u-s-f-22-raptor-flying-over-syria.html

I would take this news with a pinch of salt.

 

[indus]

Seems Congress has stated that either the Rafale deal shld be cancelled or price renegotiated. The true colors are out. Cong working to sabotage the deal at any cost.

 

[smestarz]

Why cant Air launched Brahmos be Nuclear capable? Do you have any link that claims otherwise?

MKI which are modified to withstand EMP are better than Rafale for delivery firstly becaue of being bigger and hence able to lift a heavier and longer missile than Rafale. For example Rafale cannot Carry the present Brahmos A under its Fuselage or pylon due to the size of Brahmos, The Rafale would simply not able to take off. When you say Strategic, it usually means RANGE of longer distance, Perhaps you forget that Su-30 MKI has more internal fuel and better range than Rafale. So to give you an idea. For the max range that .Su-30 MKI is capable, to achieve that Range, Rafale would have to use its 5 heavy and wet pylons to carry Fuel tanks, Thus Su-30 MKI can carry its full 8.5 tons of Warload, and Rafale since it would be carrying 5 Fuel tanks , it would carr y just Meteors and MICA, (useless A2G load) So am nore sure why you talk of Strategic nuclear package when you do not really understand it thorougly. For France Rafale is the most capable plane, but when stacked against Indian, Su-30 MKI the Warload + Range of Su-MKI is unmatched by Rafale.So Rafale can carry good load for short and medium ranges (operational and Tactical) Also the term operational and Strategic also depends on size of country. When France says Strategy or Intercontinental they usually mean North African area. When the Russians talk of Strategic, they can mean mainland USA , Africa and Asia. When Nepal says "strategic" it ussually is talking about China or India..

MIRAGE 2000 were assigned for SFC which is now undergoing upgrades (40 million a pop) also the Indian Mirages were not capable of carrying Nuclear tipped missiles just Nuclear conventional bombs. We realised this when during Kargil the Indian Mirage 2000 did not have the Targeting pods The Israelis then helped with Targeting pods and then the M2K were able to conduct strikes in Kargil using smart bombs.

As I said M2K or Rafale are not "strategic enough" to be able to conduct strikes on important cities like Shanghai or even Guangzhou. And do pray tell me, what will be the delivery system for Rafale to conduct nuclear strikes? Dumb bombs? We know they are not big enough to carry Brahmos A.

I am not convinced that Brahmos on MKI will be nuclear capable probably Tactical nukes but that is again a futile exercise when we put it under the test of nuclear deterrence doctrine.

Though I agree modified MKI will be a capable platform but not as good as Rafale to do deliver strategic nuclear strike package.

If I am not wrong Mirage2K are assigned to SFC for the same purpose which Rafale will take over when they retire.

 

[Hiranyaksha]

I won't comment on technical aspects of Rafale because I am not the best judge on that but what seems dubious to my eyes that even if I assume that safran GTRE JV was part of an arrangement of 36 Rafale deal, why weren't financials of both projects kept seperate ? I.e keeping cost of 36 Rafale low and paying high for ToT for jet engine technology. So that it would be clear for any layman like me.
And second why Reliance defence was chosen as partner, even if it is assumed/proven that HAL is no good or it is planned that HAL will be given other workloads such as Tejas manufacturing, given Reliance defence is a new company in this field and doesn't have proven capabilities . Why no other private player was chosen ?

 

[hit&run]

Why cant Air launched Brahmos be Nuclear capable? Do you have any link that claims otherwise?

You are conflating Air warfare with Strategic Nuclear strikes using fighter jets or bombers. Kindly pay attention to the terms used.

Brahmos can be tipped with Tactical nukes but that won't pass the test of Nuclear Deterrence Doctrine. (I repeat)

Strategic Nuclear Strikes is a different ball game. Ambiguity, Stealth, Speed, Survival is of utmost importance. It gotta be generally done sans Air Superiority.

 

[scatterStorm]

I won't comment on technical aspects of Rafale because I am not the best judge on that but what seems dubious to my eyes that even if I assume that safran GTRE JV was part of an arrangement of 36 Rafale deal, why weren't financials of both projects kept seperate ? I.e keeping cost of 36 Rafale low and paying high for ToT for jet engine technology. So that it would be clear for any layman like me.
And second why Reliance defence was chosen as partner, even if it is assumed/proven that HAL is no good or it is planned that HAL will be given other workloads such as Tejas manufacturing, given Reliance defence is a new company in this field and doesn't have proven capabilities . Why no other private player was chosen ?

1. Good point on the financials part, however I believe to mitigate high costs of already tri fold prices just because of inflation. We would have gotten less jets with basic config and no ToT If we wanted just jets only. So we played the ball, getting less jets with 'war ready' config and to prevent more clusterfuck. Analogy: Combos are good way to reduce price friction while creating demand for shelf items that are on shelf and not generating revenue. At least that's what I think of.

2. Reliance defence is just like how contracts are awarded to big defence contractors in US like Lockheed, Boeing or Raytheon. There's politics involved, (like YF23 was a capable jet yet YF22 was chosen ... just because it looked beautiful to some big fund backers who invest there money in black projects). Nevertheless, Reliance Defence considering as private player has some benefits like the amount of money, infra and manpower they can pool to complete this project on time, which the HAL a PSU can never achieve because of babuguri and politics.

3. No other private player has the capability to pool money, infra and manpower at such massive scale. If you want to go big, you have to give the manufacturing to big corporations and corporation are the only players that rule the defence industry.

 

[BON PLAN]

Sorry to disappoint you guys but 36 Rafale are not meant for SFC. SFC has already begun taking deliveries of the modified MKI of which it has 42 on order. Brahmos deployed on the MKI is the IAF's chief Nuke delivery vehicle. 216 missiles are on order, one can easily expect to have around 25% of these missiles nuke tipped.

No evidence of that. In one sens or another.

 

[BON PLAN]

However you can just detect them, currently there's no solution to fire a homing missile based on OLS tracking data

Not really. OLS and laser distance (as on rafale OSF) is enough.

 

[Immanuel]

I am not convinced that Brahmos on MKI will be nuclear capable probably Tactical nukes but that is again a futile exercise when we put it under the test of nuclear deterrence doctrine.

Though I agree modified MKI will be a capable platform but not as good as Rafale to do deliver strategic nuclear strike package.

If I am not wrong Mirage2K are assigned to SFC for the same purpose which Rafale will take over when they retire.

The Brahmos-A can carry a 300kg warhead, a 300 kilo nuke warhead by today's standards in the SFC equates to a 150-200KT thermo-nuke which weights around 270-300 kg or a 50-75Kt boosted Fission warhead which weighs around 250kg+

Eitherway, the damage done is good enough to wipe out massive heavily guarded air bases, FOBs, army encampments, Naval Yards etc.

There is no way a Rafale or an MKI can actually be better than a mach 3+ 450km+ terrain hugging supersonic missile with terminal maneuvers when it comes to delivering a nuke payload. Get in the air, authorize weapons launch and scoot. Not only does the risk for the pilot and the mission crew reduce drastically, but the chance of mission success is well over quadrupled. The concept of nuke bombing will remain till the Jag's are phased out. I doubt the first batch of Rafales will be used for nuke roles, since the first batches are used extensively to familiarize doctrine, tactics, perform IOC & FOC tests, weapons integration tests etc. I can see them replacing the Jag's role in subsequent batches or down the line in 2022+. There is a nuke armed version of the Garuthma Winged Guide Bomb also being tested from MKI, eventually this bomb can be fitted on the Rafale.

Rafale won't get the Brahmos.

 

[Immanuel]

No evidence of that. In one sens or another.

As if IAF is going to give you all the exact details of it's nuclear capability, SFC has already started getting MKI (fact), Brahmos's range has been increased and it's navigation fine tuned and meanwhile they have been adding more terminal maneuvers to it's ability (fact), The requirement for 40 aircraft under SFC was launched already in 2010 and Brahmos modifications that was starting on the MKI further got delayed due to several major mods needed on the aircraft including structural, avionics, FBW and nuclear hardening. Hence, we saw a delay in the aircraft getting ready for Brahmos tests. 2 existing MKI were used for mods and testing while 40 new build aircraft are in delivery. By 2015/16 tests were underway and now we have several aircraft already in inventory that can deliver a nuke payload with the Brahmos. No one is going to point this out explicitly. It's just the same case with all Ballistic Missiles in inventory, their disclosed range is X, but real range is usually X + atleast 30% more.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/inter...c-super-weapon-capability/article12556559.ece

 

[BON PLAN]

There is no way a Rafale or an MKI can actually be better than a mach 3+ 450km+ terrain hugging supersonic missile with terminal maneuvers when it comes to delivering a nuke payload.

Some months ago you or one of your friends explained that a supersonic frecnh deterrence missile, with terrain following , mach3+, 500km range AND STEALTH ATTRIBUTES ASMPA has no chance against a S400.
now a non stealthy Brahlos is the hell weapon....
explain me why it's not OK for the first and OK for the second (except of course that one is indian and not the other)

 

[BON PLAN]

As if IAF is going to give you all the exact details of it's nuclear capability, SFC has already started getting MKI (fact), Brahmos's range has been increased and it's navigation fine tuned and meanwhile they have been adding more terminal maneuvers to it's ability (fact), The requirement for 40 aircraft under SFC was launched already in 2010 and Brahmos modifications that was starting on the MKI further got delayed due to several major mods needed on the aircraft including structural, avionics, FBW and nuclear hardening. Hence, we saw a delay in the aircraft getting ready for Brahmos tests. 2 existing MKI were used for mods and testing while 40 new build aircraft are in delivery. By 2015/16 tests were underway and now we have several aircraft already in inventory that can deliver a nuke payload with the Brahmos. No one is going to point this out explicitly. It's just the same case with all Ballistic Missiles in inventory, their disclosed range is X, but real range is usually X + atleast 30% more.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/inter...c-super-weapon-capability/article12556559.ece

Brahmos can be a deterrence vector, but there is no evidence it is on track. I just say that.

To have the similar weapon with classical warhead and nuclear warhead is a risk. When you are gesticulating with a only nuclear weapon, it has a sens for a potential threat. In the other case you can't send a clear message. And even worst : a classical salvo can be seen as a nuclear one, with a clear risk of escalation.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Some months ago you or one of your friends explained that a supersonic frecnh deterrence missile, with terrain following , mach3+, 500km range AND STEALTH ATTRIBUTES ASMPA has no chance against a S400.
now a non stealthy Brahlos is the hell weapon....
explain me why it's not OK for the first and OK for the second (except of course that one is indian and not the other)

How can ASMP have just 900kg for 300km at 3Mach while Brahmos (Air launched) has 2.5ton weight for 450km? What is the special formula that makes ASMP less weight? It i really not believable. ASMP is more or less about 100km range which will become too less

By the way, I don't see what stealth you want in a missile that travels at 1km/s and at low altitude. Brahmos is not overtly non-stelthy. Brahmos also has composite body and has its own low visibility and streamlined motion.

 

[JeanBee]

大家好。我刚来这地方。我是Newtech装甲的员工，是一个伟大的防弹衣制造商，我们生产HAP，防弹背心，盾牌和头盔。我们曾经为来自巴基斯坦等不同国家的许多军队招标，并与许多县建立了长期合作关系。我想我们可以在这里交换意见，讨论有关防弹设备的技术和科学，我期待收到您的意见和建议，以便我们进一步改进我们的防护产品。如果您对我们的产品感兴趣，欢迎访问我们的官方网站：http：//www.newtecharmor.com/

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

大家好。我刚来这地方。我是Newtech装甲的员工，是一个伟大的防弹衣制造商，我们生产HAP，防弹背心，盾牌和头盔。我们曾经为来自巴基斯坦等不同国家的许多军队招标，并与许多县建立了长期合作关系。我想我们可以在这里交换意见，讨论有关防弹设备的技术和科学，我期待收到您的意见和建议，以便我们进一步改进我们的防护产品。如果您对我们的产品感兴趣，欢迎访问我们的官方网站：http：//www.newtecharmor.com/

This translates to:
Hello everyone. I just came to this place. I am a Newtech armored employee and a great body armor manufacturer, we produce HAP, bulletproof vests, shields and helmets. We have tendered for many troops from different countries such as Pakistan and have established long-term cooperative relationships with many counties. I think we can exchange ideas here and discuss the technology and science of bulletproof equipment. I look forward to receiving your comments and suggestions so that we can further improve our protective products. If you are interested in our products, please visit our official website.


Just helping those who would be puzzled at the above post: www.newtecharmor.com/

 

[BON PLAN]

How can ASMP have just 900kg for 300km at 3Mach while Brahmos (Air launched) has 2.5ton weight for 450km? What is the special formula that makes ASMP less weight? It i really not believable. ASMP is more or less about 100km range which will become too less

By the way, I don't see what stealth you want in a missile that travels at 1km/s and at low altitude. Brahmos is not overtly non-stelthy. Brahmos also has composite body and has its own low visibility and streamlined motion.

ASMPA is a 500km range missile. not in a 100% low profile mission for sure.
Difference?
1) Brahmos is made to carry a far heavier load. And french nuclear device is more advanced so the nuc warhead is lighter than an indian equivalent in yield.
2) ASMPA came after the ASMP, with a range in low profile of 300 to 350km. We also made big progress in stato tech.
3) AMSPA (as ASMP) has a flying body, when Brahmos rely on wings. There is a difference in aerydynamism