Know Your 'Rafale'

[Immanuel]

My premise was based on carrying and dropping a nuclear weapon using jets. Pakistan has assigned F-16s for this job.

As per your claim, India has added a new dimension by using an Air born nuclear cruise missile.

I am not too sure if Air born cruise missile which is not tested enough and no proof of nuclear fuse synched with its cruise profile and the software can be treated as reliable and potent nuclear deterrence asset.

I won't call it a Jingo fantasy because it is too good to be true and I would myself love it to be the case.

MKIs upgraded to hardened its frame were purely for carrying heavier Single Brahmos. EMP protection is a standard upgrade that every Jet has.

MKI with its longer air born time, larger frame thus large RCS, requiring pristine airstrip condition and theatre with the minimum required air superiority make me doubt if it will be the first SFC choice. Probably a makeshift or contingency.

Please mind my objection or doubts are with Nuclear tipped Brahmos, I believe MKI are capable to drop the bomb.

I can be wrong; as you said, there will be ambiguity for all the good reason.But I will stick to my old school of thought for the time being.

If I may add Rafale has better T/W ratio than MKI. Distrusting its weight carrying capabilities is unfounded.

MKI, Jags and Mirages can drop Nuke bombs but the game changer since last year is Brahmos on MKI. All MKI are not nuclear hardened, only Brahmos enabled MKI will be. During initial phases of SFC's requirement, 290km range cap was considered an issue, hence MTCR was signed, the result thereof is removal of software cap on ranges. Current range of the Brahmos is between 450-600 km depending on flight profile. That range will be enhanced with a test of 750-800 km ER version being planned for end of year with newer fuels, lighter materials etc.

While Rafale does have a better T/W it won't get the Brahmos, it will therefore rely in the future on potential dropping nuke version of winged Garuthma glide bomb which does have stand off ranges of over 80 km when laucvnhed from high altitude. While I am certain, Rafale can do this very well. The icing on the cake will be the Brahmos on MKI.

Also there is new need of 40 more Brahmos capable MKI to be bought, hopefully end of year. This should allow for more dual role Brahmos capable MKIs.

While Nuke tipped Brahmos is virtual fact. Apart from official statements, there will probably never be a real open claim for that. I highly doubt IAF, SFC and the security establishment in general would play 'nice' while virtually every cruise missile in Chini and Puki inventory can be potentially dual role. Heck, the Puki's even managed to nuke tip old Harpoons from the US.

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world/asia/30missile.html

 

[Immanuel]

In your mouth, all that is french is :
costly,
non efficient,
non agile,
non clever,
non compliant,

So is ASMPA.....

Your opinion is always unsupported, so one more or less....

Good day, Mister No.

I never said costly as far ASMP is concerned, I didn't say it wasn't agile or clever or compliant. I am just saying Brahmos is a newer and better weapon with a lot more capability from the ground up and with plenty of tweaks to improve it more.

 

[WolfPack86]

All three officials who protested on file about financial conditions of the Rafale deal have now been posted out.

 

[sorcerer]

Amid Rafale controversy, DRAL workers quietly make plane nose cones

NAGPUR: About 3km inside the Mihan-SEZ, a largely desolate area, 'DRAL' reads a signboard outside a fenced plot flanked by expanses of vacant land. DRAL stands for Dassault Reliance Aviation Limited (DRAL), the name linked with the Rafale controversy.

A shed spread over a 10,000 square feet area is the only workplace as of now. It houses the full workforce of around 50 persons engaged by DRAL. There are 8 to 10 personnel deputed from Dassault, the French joint venture partner of Reliance Aerostructure Limited (RAL), who are training the Indian staff.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ake-plane-nose-cones/articleshow/65987317.cms

 

[BON PLAN]

While Rafale does have a better T/W it won't get the Brahmos, it will therefore rely in the future on potential dropping nuke version of winged Garuthma glide bomb which does have stand off ranges of over 80 km when laucvnhed from high altitude. While I am certain, Rafale can do this very well. The icing on the cake will be the Brahmos on MKI.

it's not a question of T/W. It's a question of overall dimensions of Brahmos.

What about a light Brahmos? (to fit under all planes except Su)

 

[BON PLAN]

it will therefore rely in the future on potential dropping nuke version of winged Garuthma glide bomb which does have stand off ranges of over 80 km when laucvnhed from high altitude.

Too risky to use such a range glide bomb for a nuc, isn't it?. All SAM or artillery system can catch it.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

MKI, Jags and Mirages can drop Nuke bombs but the game changer since last year is Brahmos on MKI. All MKI are not nuclear hardened, only Brahmos enabled MKI will be. During initial phases of SFC's requirement, 290km range cap was considered an issue, hence MTCR was signed, the result thereof is removal of software cap on ranges. Current range of the Brahmos is between 450-600 km depending on flight profile. That range will be enhanced with a test of 750-800 km ER version being planned for end of year with newer fuels, lighter materials etc.

While Rafale does have a better T/W it won't get the Brahmos, it will therefore rely in the future on potential dropping nuke version of winged Garuthma glide bomb which does have stand off ranges of over 80 km when laucvnhed from high altitude. While I am certain, Rafale can do this very well. The icing on the cake will be the Brahmos on MKI.

Also there is new need of 40 more Brahmos capable MKI to be bought, hopefully end of year. This should allow for more dual role Brahmos capable MKIs.

While Nuke tipped Brahmos is virtual fact. Apart from official statements, there will probably never be a real open claim for that. I highly doubt IAF, SFC and the security establishment in general would play 'nice' while virtually every cruise missile in Chini and Puki inventory can be potentially dual role. Heck, the Puki's even managed to nuke tip old Harpoons from the US.

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world/asia/30missile.html

Nukes are too precious to be used as drop bombs. Drop bombs have lot of problem with accuracy and also has high chance of being intercepted even by cheap stinger missiles.

PS: All MKI are capable of dropping nukes. The 40 MKI are hardened to carry 2.5ton missile in a single hardpoint. If Rafale ever trues to carry 2.5ton missile, the airframe will rip out and the plane will crash.

 

[BON PLAN]

PS: All MKI are capable of dropping nukes.

ARE YOU SURE ?
I don't think so. Low risk to fire a 250+km range and to be at 300km when the blast occured.

But in the case of a gravity nuclear bombing, the plane stand at some kilometers when the EMP arrive.... and this is another story if it isn't hardened.

 

[smestarz]

.. and Importantly its an indian weapon, designed to be used by Indian forces as per the need of the Indian forces. Surely its not perfect but the improvements are being done. The Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme of India was one of the most ambitious and one of the most successful programs of any country in the world to develop range of missiles for different needs ,

I never said costly as far ASMP is concerned, I didn't say it wasn't agile or clever or compliant. I am just saying Brahmos is a newer and better weapon with a lot more capability from the ground up and with plenty of tweaks to improve it more.

 

[smestarz]

On an unrelated point, Though like you said, Rafale has 5 heavy points, which Su-30 MKI does not have, Rafale has 13-14 pylons and Su-30 MKI has 12, despite all that Rafale can carry only one ASMP-A that too on centreline pylon.. just one,.. same what the Su-30 MKI (the 40 modified planes) can carry.
Sure you can argue why does a plane need to carry more than one nuke.True, but then in terms of nuclear strike, Rafale and Su-30 MKI carry jjust one warhead, Then investing in Rafale ends up being too expensive when the same job is done by Su-30 MKI
Also there was an article which did say that Sukhoi had approached IAF 10 years ago for them to make a maintenance contract to assure availability rate of 75% but IAF refused... Thought just you should know//

ARE YOU SURE ?
I don't think so. Low risk to fire a 250+km range and to be at 300km when the blast occured.

But in the case of a gravity nuclear bombing, the plane stand at some kilometers when the EMP arrive.... and this is another story if it isn't hardened.

 

[smestarz]

On an unrelated point, Though like you said, Rafale has 5 heavy points, which Su-30 MKI does not have, Rafale has 13-14 pylons and Su-30 MKI has 12, despite all that Rafale can carry only one ASMP-A that too on centreline pylon.. just one,.. same what the Su-30 MKI (the 40 modified planes) can carry.
Sure you can argue why does a plane need to carry more than one nuke.True, but then in terms of nuclear strike, Rafale and Su-30 MKI carry jjust one warhead, Then investing in Rafale ends up being too expensive when the same job is done by Su-30 MKI
Also there was an article which did say that Sukhoi had approached IAF 10 years ago for them to make a maintenance contract to assure availability rate of 75% but IAF refused... Thought just you should know//

ARE YOU SURE ?
I don't think so. Low risk to fire a 250+km range and to be at 300km when the blast occured.

But in the case of a gravity nuclear bombing, the plane stand at some kilometers when the EMP arrive.... and this is another story if it isn't hardened.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

On an unrelated point, Though like you said, Rafale has 5 heavy points, which Su-30 MKI does not have, Rafale has 13-14 pylons and Su-30 MKI has 12, despite all that Rafale can carry only one ASMP-A that too on centreline pylon.. just one,.. same what the Su-30 MKI (the 40 modified planes) can carry.
Sure you can argue why does a plane need to carry more than one nuke.True, but then in terms of nuclear strike, Rafale and Su-30 MKI carry jjust one warhead, Then investing in Rafale ends up being too expensive when the same job is done by Su-30 MKI
Also there was an article which did say that Sukhoi had approached IAF 10 years ago for them to make a maintenance contract to assure availability rate of 75% but IAF refused... Thought just you should know//

That is not true at all. ASMP is 900kg while modified Brahmos can carry 2500kg in a single pylon. If rafale even tries, its airframe will rip out. Nukes ca be 500 kg glide bomb. But carrying 2.5-3 ton missile is extraordinary

 

[BON PLAN]

On an unrelated point, Though like you said, Rafale has 5 heavy points, which Su-30 MKI does not have, Rafale has 13-14 pylons and Su-30 MKI has 12, despite all that Rafale can carry only one ASMP-A that too on centreline pylon.. just one,.. same what the Su-30 MKI (the 40 modified planes) can carry.
Sure you can argue why does a plane need to carry more than one nuke.True, but then in terms of nuclear strike, Rafale and Su-30 MKI carry jjust one warhead, Then investing in Rafale ends up being too expensive when the same job is done by Su-30 MKI
Also there was an article which did say that Sukhoi had approached IAF 10 years ago for them to make a maintenance contract to assure availability rate of 75% but IAF refused... Thought just you should know//

Rafale has 3 of its hard points cleared for SCALP. A 1400kg missile.
If french air force and political top brass need it, we can integrate 3 x AMSPA of 900kg each. But unecessary in the french doctrine : ASMPA is a weapon of "last warning", so one on a plane is enough. If not, a salvo of M51 with 6 to 10 MARV head each will follow.

Main difference between Rafale and Su30 is that the first is LO, when SU has a RCS of a truck. And in a deep strike, with o without nuke , it's important.

Su30 is a formidable fighter, equal to F15. But it is not made for air to ground mission. Rafale is a polyvalent plane : Very good in all aspect (AtoA, AtoG, anti ship...) as Swiss eval shown. Su30 is probably excellent in AtoA, but average in other role. It's why IAF ordered the two types.

India need an important army forces, because you may have to face 2 opponents. So, even if you are not yet a rich country, with 1.4 billions people you have the money to purchase the 2 types (it's the case !).
Other smaller country with less money will favor a polyvalent plane.

 

[smestarz]

Most of the crap about Rafale being VLO is being spread only by Rafale fanboys. In some sites, the Eurofighter has much lower RCS than Rafale,

There is difference between SCALP and ASMPA, so, try not to give me BS about ,, IF and etc. Do come with credible source like Dassault which says Rafale can carry 3 ASMP-As and we shall accept it.
So if its about LAST Warning, then I guess Su-30 MKI does equal to Rafale in Nuclear role, but the big difference is that India has Brahmos and we can fine tune it the way we want it without any objections. On other hand the French are not going to give ASMP-A thus in nuclear role for India Su-30 MKI becomes more capable than Rafale.

Su-30 MKI is Su-30 MKI there has not been any development on it because they had a lot of orders, but the French had lot of free time with no orders coming, so they did try to make the plane more "sellable"

I do agree that Su-30 Is capable as F-15, I am sure you are aware of F-15 Silent Eagle version? Flying low also has the risk of facing QRSAMs and MANPADs which are not such a risk for high flying planes.
The day of low flying are long gone. These days even CAS is done using Smart missiles.
Did you notice that AH-64E the worlds best Anti tank weapon does not fly close to the tank to destroy it, It pops up, targets the tank and fires missiles. If you can take a target from long distance, why the need to get close and personal?

We know what sort of planes we want, unfortunately our defence establishment is heavily compromised and due to vested interest the results are manipulated..

Rafale has 3 of its hard points cleared for SCALP. A 1400kg missile.
If french air force and political top brass need it, we can integrate 3 x AMSPA of 900kg each. But unecessary in the french doctrine : ASMPA is a weapon of "last warning", so one on a plane is enough. If not, a salvo of M51 with 6 to 10 MARV head each will follow.

Main difference between Rafale and Su30 is that the first is LO, when SU has a RCS of a truck. And in a deep strike, with o without nuke , it's important.

Su30 is a formidable fighter, equal to F15. But it is not made for air to ground mission. Rafale is a polyvalent plane : Very good in all aspect (AtoA, AtoG, anti ship...) as Swiss eval shown. Su30 is probably excellent in AtoA, but average in other role. It's why IAF ordered the two types.

India need an important army forces, because you may have to face 2 opponents. So, even if you are not yet a rich country, with 1.4 billions people you have the money to purchase the 2 types (it's the case !).
Other smaller country with less money will favor a polyvalent plane.

 

[BON PLAN]

In some sites, the Eurofighter has much lower RCS than Rafale,

Eurofighter one ? LOL

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Most of the crap about Rafale being VLO is being spread only by Rafale fanboys. In some sites, the Eurofighter has much lower RCS than Rafale,

There is difference between SCALP and ASMPA, so, try not to give me BS about ,, IF and etc. Do come with credible source like Dassault which says Rafale can carry 3 ASMP-As and we shall accept it.
So if its about LAST Warning, then I guess Su-30 MKI does equal to Rafale in Nuclear role, but the big difference is that India has Brahmos and we can fine tune it the way we want it without any objections. On other hand the French are not going to give ASMP-A thus in nuclear role for India Su-30 MKI becomes more capable than Rafale.

Su-30 MKI is Su-30 MKI there has not been any development on it because they had a lot of orders, but the French had lot of free time with no orders coming, so they did try to make the plane more "sellable"

I do agree that Su-30 Is capable as F-15, I am sure you are aware of F-15 Silent Eagle version? Flying low also has the risk of facing QRSAMs and MANPADs which are not such a risk for high flying planes.
The day of low flying are long gone. These days even CAS is done using Smart missiles.
Did you notice that AH-64E the worlds best Anti tank weapon does not fly close to the tank to destroy it, It pops up, targets the tank and fires missiles. If you can take a target from long distance, why the need to get close and personal?

We know what sort of planes we want, unfortunately our defence establishment is heavily compromised and due to vested interest the results are manipulated..

RCS of rafale is 1m^2. It has lower RCS due to SPECTRA jammer but that jammer can be in any plane.

About Rafale deal, India is getting offsets of around $2 billion which is important for India. Many of this is going into DRDO itself which means it is technology transfer. In addition, India is getting some Jaguars, Mirage2000 etc.

Parrikar had made it clear that India does not need Rafale but can make do with Su30. So, it is clear that the utility of Rafale was in the offsets, not the plane itself

 

[BON PLAN]

There is difference between SCALP and ASMPA, so, try not to give me BS about ,, IF and etc. Do come with credible source like Dassault which says Rafale can carry 3 ASMP-As and we shall accept it.

No source, because never studied.
But without restriction about lenght (under the wings), and a lighter weapon, I see no reason an ASMPA can't be put under the wings.
But as previously said, it is not required in France.

 

[BON PLAN]

RCS of rafale is 1m^2.

Far less Bro. Far ....

 

[BON PLAN]

but the French had lot of free time with no orders coming, so they did try to make the plane more "sellable"

From the early beginning, Rafale was studied in F1 (only air to air), F2 (add first air to ground aspect) and F3 standards (fully multirole).
So it's not a question of free time.
F3R is just the integration of Meteor (a weapon not in the air at the beginning of Rafale) and AEROS pod (same)
F4 will be the first really new standard.

You are not well informed about Rafale Bro.

 

[BON PLAN]

Flying low also has the risk of facing QRSAMs and MANPADs which are not such a risk for high flying planes.

Yes,
But what are the country with a perfectly plate ground ? Not China. Not Pak, Not India.
And a mission is never made without a strong battlefield view, in which QRSAM are located.
Manpads don't have the prior notice to fire a very low flying plane. It's good for Helo and A10 like planes, and only when manoeuvring.