Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

HAL makes avionics, engines, helicopters, trainers, Do228, Hawk-i, MiG21 & services all the planes and aircrafts in indian inventory

Mig21? It's a joke.

 

[BON PLAN]

A very good news for Rafale !!!

@Sancho @StealthFlanker @smestarz : sorry for you....

With the S400 purchase, and the risk of US sanction, combined to average products (F16, SH18) means that the sole real opponent is EF. And EF don't give any edge, technically or diplomatically.
Su35, ordered by China, and because it is a russian product is out. Just usefull to bargain with west suppliers.

Rafale is in the last track to win.

http://idrw.org/mmrca-2-0-trials-will-be-short-iaf-chief/

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Mig21? It's a joke.

We already were speaking of Su30 and hence I did not repeat. MiG21 was made in 1970s-80 and after 2010, Su30 is made. MiG21 is being serviced and overhauled when needed in HAL will it retires. miG21 engine was also made by HAL and even today some of the engine spare parts are made in HAL.

Other portfolios are overhaul of MiG27, MiG29, jaguars, Mirage2000, manufacturing and overhaul of helicopters of different variety, trainers and mini planes like HTT Dipak, Hawk-i, Do228 etc, manufacturing of engines for Su30, avionics for helicopters, planes of all variety, manufacturing of radars, mission computers, simulators etc

Dassault does very little job on its own. HAL is like Dasault, Safran and Thales combined together

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

India does not trust USA or UK with high end items. EFT is made by UK primarily and other countries are just bodu shops. USA and UK does not agree to give any technology transfers to India. So, EFT was always ruled out except for creeps like @Sancho

The real competition is between Russian MiG35 and Rafale. Russia is willing to give full ToT like it gave for Su30. SO, don't look at fake competitions and laugh at yourself

A very good news for Rafale !!!

@Sancho @StealthFlanker @smestarz : sorry for you....

With the S400 purchase, and the risk of US sanction, combined to average products (F16, SH18) means that the sole real opponent is EF. And EF don't give any edge, technically or diplomatically.
Su35, ordered by China, and because it is a russian product is out. Just usefull to bargain with west suppliers.

Rafale is in the last track to win.

http://idrw.org/mmrca-2-0-trials-will-be-short-iaf-chief/

 

[smestarz]

The news does not say anything about Rafale
Now, I do feel sorry for you dear, for the following reasons

a) USA as of now have not sanctioned India, and I doubt they would. We have not gone and told USA ".. we dont give rats @$$ about your sanctions and we are going in .. " We rather tried to explain to USA have critical S-400 deal is for India and we thought we should get a waiver. Also to note is that US Dep official has said "we do not sanction allies " Does that tell anything to you?
Do read this https://www.livemint.com/Politics/U...-sanctions-not-at-the-expense-of-damagin.html
Its in English and maybe you do not fully understand it,,
So, the two players for MMRCA are still there, dream on BP.

b) With all the ruckus about the Rafale deal in public domain about quid pro quo for Anil Ambani (where he gets benefit for India signing deal with France for Rafale) That seems would stay for sometime. Opposition parties have requested CAG and CVC to look into it, So where would that put Dassault?

Sanctions or not, we shall come to know within a week, but whether to do more business with Dassault would (if CAG and CVC get involved) then might take years to get clarity.

Also India signed a deal with Russia that shows that Indo Russia relations are still strong, and that might put Su-35 or maybe an improve version of it with say an AESA version could be available for MRCA.

Also remember, MiG-35 is very capable plane and best value for money among the compeitors Also india uses MiG-299 UPG which has commonality.

So in a way, all this is not really pro Rafale development but development that does not favour Rafale..

Also though IAF would want a plane,, they give their recommendations, but its upto the govt to purchase the plane... IAF is the user, not the decision maker in fact.

A very good news for Rafale !!!

@Sancho @StealthFlanker @smestarz : sorry for you....

With the S400 purchase, and the risk of US sanction, combined to average products (F16, SH18) means that the sole real opponent is EF. And EF don't give any edge, technically or diplomatically.
Su35, ordered by China, and because it is a russian product is out. Just usefull to bargain with west suppliers.

Rafale is in the last track to win.

http://idrw.org/mmrca-2-0-trials-will-be-short-iaf-chief/

 

[smestarz]

Do add Su-35 that might be in the race too

India does not trust USA or UK with high end items. EFT is made by UK primarily and other countries are just bodu shops. USA and UK does not agree to give any technology transfers to India. So, EFT was always ruled out except for creeps like @Sancho

The real competition is between Russian MiG35 and Rafale. Russia is willing to give full ToT like it gave for Su30. SO, don't look at fake competitions and laugh at yourself

 

[DAC O DAC]

RCS of rafale is 1m^2. It has lower RCS due to SPECTRA jammer but that jammer can be in any plane.

About Rafale deal, India is getting offsets of around $2 billion which is important for India. Many of this is going into DRDO itself which means it is technology transfer. In addition, India is getting some Jaguars, Mirage2000 etc.

Parrikar had made it clear that India does not need Rafale but can make do with Su30. So, it is clear that the utility of Rafale was in the offsets, not the plane itself

RCS of rafale is less than 0.1m2 from front side

Dassault does very little job on its own. HAL is like Dasault, Safran and Thales combined together

Dassault buit up to date fighters (according to Rand corp. Dassault is the sole to be on par with US ! ), built business jets, Has studied the Hermes shuttle, has studied and built the first deterrence missile for Israel (see below), has studied and built the Mercure liner, A subsidiary od Dassault, called electronic Marcel Dassault, then electronic Serge Dassaut and now merge with Thales studied and produced radars for fighters and missiles

HAL ? they are do-it-yourselfers on Sunday

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/passion/avions/dassault-militaires/md-620-jericho/

 

[DAC O DAC]

India does not trust USA or UK with high end items. EFT is made by UK primarily and other countries are just bodu shops. USA and UK does not agree to give any technology transfers to India. So, EFT was always ruled out except for creeps like @Sancho

The real competition is between Russian MiG35 and Rafale. Russia is willing to give full ToT like it gave for Su30. SO, don't look at fake competitions and laugh at yourself

Indian government and IAF don't want a russian product : the Su30 fllet is wide, there is disponibility problem, the russian planes are affordable but the support and spares parts cost a lot, they want a west plane so as to challenge the russian one and not put all the eggs in the same basket.
Mig35 don't have an operationnal AESA radar so far (as Su35), and is too new.
IAF want a west mature up to date medium fighter.

Mig and Su will just be used to bargain the west OEM.

 

[DAC O DAC]

Do add Su-35 that might be in the race too

No.
Far too heavy, already sold to China, too near a Su30, and india don't want a russian product this time.

 

[DAC O DAC]

The news does not say anything about Rafale
Now, I do feel sorry for you dear, for the following reasons

a) USA as of now have not sanctioned India, and I doubt they would. We have not gone and told USA ".. we dont give rats @$$ about your sanctions and we are going in .. " We rather tried to explain to USA have critical S-400 deal is for India and we thought we should get a waiver. Also to note is that US Dep official has said "we do not sanction allies " Does that tell anything to you?
Do read this https://www.livemint.com/Politics/U...-sanctions-not-at-the-expense-of-damagin.html
Its in English and maybe you do not fully understand it,,
So, the two players for MMRCA are still there, dream on BP.

b) With all the ruckus about the Rafale deal in public domain about quid pro quo for Anil Ambani (where he gets benefit for India signing deal with France for Rafale) That seems would stay for sometime. Opposition parties have requested CAG and CVC to look into it, So where would that put Dassault?

Sanctions or not, we shall come to know within a week, but whether to do more business with Dassault would (if CAG and CVC get involved) then might take years to get clarity.

Also India signed a deal with Russia that shows that Indo Russia relations are still strong, and that might put Su-35 or maybe an improve version of it with say an AESA version could be available for MRCA.

Also remember, MiG-35 is very capable plane and best value for money among the compeitors Also india uses MiG-299 UPG which has commonality.

So in a way, all this is not really pro Rafale development but development that does not favour Rafale..

Also though IAF would want a plane,, they give their recommendations, but its upto the govt to purchase the plane... IAF is the user, not the decision maker in fact.

The MMRCA2 document, I have read it carrefully, is strangely perfectly fitted to just one plane.

It's name starts with "RAF" and ends with 'ALE"

 

[Immanuel]

The US won't sanction the S-400 deal, keep dreaming folks, this deal has been done clearly after clarifications with US. COMSACA signing, NASAMs cleared for purchase, 6 more Apaches cleared with more 33 to be ordered later, 12 more P-8Is, 22 Guardians cleared for purchase (armed versions also available), 24 MH-60s.

By the end of 2025, the deal values of most deals with US will be a lot more than any other country. As for MMRCA 2.0, SH Block 3 is a formidable contender specially since they have tied up with HAL for local assembly with TOT (with MKI production slowly coming to an end, there is a lot of capacity becoming available in the timeline)

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The MMRCA2 document, I have read it carrefully, is strangely perfectly fitted to just one plane.

It's name starts with "RAF" and ends with 'ALE"

The MMRCA deal has the intention of getting rafsle itself. India and France had a strategic deal and the 36 was only first installment. The deal is much more deeper than merely getting some Rafale jets. Why else would India get $1.5 billion dollars offset for DRDO?

 

[BON PLAN]

The US won't sanction the S-400 deal, keep dreaming folks, this deal has been done clearly after clarifications with US. COMSACA signing, NASAMs cleared for purchase, 6 more Apaches cleared with more 33 to be ordered later, 12 more P-8Is, 22 Guardians cleared for purchase (armed versions also available), 24 MH-60s.

By the end of 2025, the deal values of most deals with US will be a lot more than any other country. As for MMRCA 2.0, SH Block 3 is a formidable contender specially since they have tied up with HAL for local assembly with TOT (with MKI production slowly coming to an end, there is a lot of capacity becoming available in the timeline)

1) I agree for Apache, P8I, drones, MH60. less clear for NASAM.

2) This is why SH3 will not be chosen. Because SH3 is not so impressive, and because the US has already been well served by 1).
Add that Indian govt want to create a new private aerospace champion to move the a** of HAL. They are tired with lazy HAL. HAL will be "punished" through MMRCA2.


India takes the best of all its old and faithfull or newbie and opportunistic suppliers : S400 from Russia, Rafale from France, and some good products from USA (not all the best, but all very good stuff)

 

[smestarz]

Would be nice if the Chinese and pakistan radars move in such a way that they always point to Rafale nose
Note to BP, S-400 can shoot down low rcs and stealth planes... China has taken this system
India havig purchased the system perhaps knows the utility and true importance of S-400,
So, Su-30 MKI have big RCS may not be used first, but they could send in Rafale and test the capability of chinese air defence. and then the active units targeted by Brahmos.

Dassault at par with US? hahahahaha.. The Americans have many 4th Gen planes and 3 5th Gen planes. French are yet empty of funds to try and develop a 5th gen plane on its own and hence the need for European fighter.
BTW India has a mock up of 5th gen plane which we plan to buy and use... (and we dont have our own engine yet) France has prototype of UCAV but they dont have the funds to produce and use it

RCS of rafale is less than 0.1m2 from front side

Dassault buit up to date fighters (according to Rand corp. Dassault is the sole to be on par with US ! ), built business jets, Has studied the Hermes shuttle, has studied and built the first deterrence missile for Israel (see below), has studied and built the Mercure liner, A subsidiary od Dassault, called electronic Marcel Dassault, then electronic Serge Dassaut and now merge with Thales studied and produced radars for fighters and missiles

HAL ? they are do-it-yourselfers on Sunday

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/passion/avions/dassault-militaires/md-620-jericho/

 

[smestarz]

S-400 is ordered for INDIAN AIR FORCE .. The Air defence is under IAF.
IAF has problem with Russian jets, but IAF top brasss was part of the problem, not solution.
Sukhoi had offered contract where they could assure 75% availability. but IAF refused. Now the Indians having signed deals with OEM will ensure higher availability rate.

Now, Rafale does not have a shape that can be stealthy. Rafale depends on electronic stealth. Just plane vs plane Su-30 MKI is superior in operations than Rafale With super Sukhoi upgrade, whatever was lacking in Su-30 MKI wll be upgraded . Maybe also with latest EW pack of Russia / Israel

Indian government and IAF don't want a russian product : the Su30 fllet is wide, there is disponibility problem, the russian planes are affordable but the support and spares parts cost a lot, they want a west plane so as to challenge the russian one and not put all the eggs in the same basket.
Mig35 don't have an operationnal AESA radar so far (as Su35), and is too new.
IAF want a west mature up to date medium fighter.

Mig and Su will just be used to bargain the west OEM.

 

[smestarz]

Why would GoI punish HAL? Does not work that way, not with this govt.
HAL is not lazy but are limited by technology and also changing specs of IAF

that is why parrikarrammed Mk1A down the IAFs throat.

For MMRCA. as per me the chances of Rafale dwindled as being political hot potato,
Nay could take F/A-18 as that could be pushed by USA that it will co-ordinate better with P-8I that Indian navy operates.

1) I agree for Apache, P8I, drones, MH60. less clear for NASAM.

2) This is why SH3 will not be chosen. Because SH3 is not so impressive, and because the US has already been well served by 1).
Add that Indian govt want to create a new private aerospace champion to move the a** of HAL. They are tired with lazy HAL. HAL will be "punished" through MMRCA2.

India takes the best of all its old and faithfull or newbie and opportunistic suppliers : S400 from Russia, Rafale from France, and some good products from USA (not all the best, but all very good stuff)

 

[smestarz]

Would BJP govt risk siding with Rafale the political hot potato? They would have to wait for few years till CAG and CVC will give theirreport, by that time the MMRCA would be over

The MMRCA deal has the intention of getting rafsle itself. India and France had a strategic deal and the 36 was only first installment. The deal is much more deeper than merely getting some Rafale jets. Why else would India get $1.5 billion dollars offset for DRDO?

 

[smestarz]

RFPs change, did you not hear about it?

BTW even Rafale had not met all the conditions of RFP of MMRCA, nor is it meeting all the requirements for INDIAN NAVY.

The MMRCA2 document, I have read it carrefully, is strangely perfectly fitted to just one plane.

It's name starts with "RAF" and ends with 'ALE"

 

[smestarz]

When india buys a plane, it would be modified as per indian requirement.
Even what Rafale we take are modified
Thus Su-35 with indian specicfic requirements Su-35 MKI can suite the bill, Is there a weight restriction on this episode of MMRCA?
As a matter of fact with INDIA already producing Su-30 MKI the line is already in planes and so is the organisation of spares

No.
Far too heavy, already sold to China, too near a Su30, and india don't want a russian product this time.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Would BJP govt risk siding with Rafale the political hot potato? They would have to wait for few years till CAG and CVC will give theirreport, by that time the MMRCA would be over

BJP has the guts and support of people to do that. BJP stands for hindutva and strong behavior of BJP can make people go with it. BIP is playing soft for now but not because of weakness.

BJP can openly say that Congress scuttled Tejas and put out lot of other details targeting congress. There is nothing that can stop BJP from doing what is necessary