Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

From Rafale deal.................????

View attachment 28848

You mean the audit? Yes, that's was done to give Safran an idea how to move in with the revival and what is to fix. Consultancy on Kaveri is part of the Rafale offsets.

 

[Sancho]

Its better you educate yourself!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition#Saab_Gripen_NG

Yes I figured that your knowledge level is based on wiki.

 

[Prashant12]

Yes I figured that your knowledge level is based on wiki.

Yes I figured that your knowledge too that Make in India is more important then Made in India.

Show me proof that Saab offered Gripen E in MMRCA 1.0.

 

[Sancho]

Yes I figured that your knowledge too

So even there, you were wrong. :biggrin2:

 

[Prashant12]

So even there, you were wrong. :biggrin2:

Yes this proves you are nothing but troll.

No answer this right ?

Show me proof that Saab offered Gripen E in MMRCA 1.0.

 

[smestarz]

YES and that was the biggest problem in the procedure, but then the procedure was put by NAK Browne. he fixed it from first to last.

2 shortlisted fighters, but only one L1, and the last bargaining was only with the L1.

 

[smestarz]

Now you start to invent new things hahahaha

The deal "cover" some other things.... more sensitive... like deterrence simulation, tactical engine and SSN technology.

 

[BON PLAN]

Now you start to invent new things hahahaha

The two sides said that these 36 fighters was part of a most complete deal...
We know that India was interested in tactical missile assistance, in nuclear warheads design, in SSN.
And the 50% offsets, without a so huge Dassault investment can hide part of these things.
Another reason to hide all the details of the deal...

 

[vampyrbladez]

Now you start to invent new things hahahaha

The 50% offset clause mainly deals with competitive pricing and infrastructure and tech gains. These deals are secretive to not allow other countries to take a peak and demand same conditions for their deal.

Also certain modifications were made by IAF which are kept secret as they deal with EW measures, etc.

 

[vampyrbladez]

YES and that was the biggest problem in the procedure, but then the procedure was put by NAK Browne. he fixed it from first to last.

L2 had two fighters and Rafale won out by competitive pricing and tech. Eurofighter was less high tech but had last minute price revision. This is in violation of DPP 2013. Hence last minute offer was not considered.

 

[BON PLAN]

@smestarz @Sancho @vampyrbladez @Prashant12 @Armand2REP

India’s HAL overruns aircraft building and upgrade deadlines

A recent internal MoD report revealed that HAL has also only licence-built 197 of the 222 Sukhoi Su-30MKI multi-role fighters it was contracted to deliver to the IAF by 2017, officials told Jane’s on condition of anonymity. The 25 remaining platforms are only expected to be handed over by 2020–21, they added.

The report also pointed to a five-year delay in the series-production of the indigenously developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), 20 units of which were initially scheduled to have entered service by early 2017.



https://www.janes.com/article/83895/india-s-hal-overruns-aircraft-building-and-upgrade-deadlines

 

[BON PLAN]

@smestarz @Sancho @vampyrbladez @Prashant12 @Armand2REP

Buying fighter jets from abroad cheaper than manufacturing them at HAL, says Def Min

A Su-30MKI made in Russia cost Rs 269.77 crore whereas one made by HAL in India costs Rs 417.69 crore, almost “Rs 150 crore” more per aircraft, the review said.

Similarly, there is a huge cost difference between the cost of the Hawk trainer aircraft manufactured by British Aerospace and those made HAL.

After long and torturous negotiations, India bought British made Hawk jets to train pilots in 2004. Of the initial 62 Hawk jets, 24 were to be bought in a fly-away condition and the remaining were to be manufactured under licence by HAL. Each Hawk aircraft manufactured Britain in 2004 cost Rs 78 Crore. Those manufactured at HAL would have cost Rs 88 crore that year. The cost Hawk aircraft produced by HAL continued to increase. In 2010, the cost shot-up to Rs 98 crore and in 2016, Rs 153 crore.

The difference in price “is primarily due to lesser efficiency and exorbitant man hour rates,” the review has found.



http://www.apnlive.com/india-news/b...-cheaper-manufacturing-hal-says-def-min-50824

 

[Sancho]

A recent internal MoD report revealed that HAL has also only licence-built 197 of the 222 Sukhoi Su-30MKI multi-role fighters it was contracted to deliver to the IAF by 2017, officials told Jane’s on condition of anonymity. The 25 remaining platforms are only expected to be handed over by 2020–21, they added.

2017 was the original delivery date for the 140 contract, that's where delays occurred.
The current production of the last batch of 42 is on track, since it was planned to end around 2019 and then divert to FGFA production. Because of the FGFA cancellation, the line will now be diverted to MKI overhaul and upgrade.

Air Chief Dhanoa in the same press conference where is stated the "programme" delays, also stated this =>

 

[Sancho]

YES and that was the biggest problem in the procedure, but then the procedure was put by NAK Browne. he fixed it from first to last.

Browne had nothing to do with it, since the procedure is given by MoD according to the DPP.

L2 had two fighters and Rafale won out by competitive pricing and tech. Eurofighter was less high tech but had last minute price revision. This is in violation of DPP 2013. Hence last minute offer was not considered.

True, there was no way back in for the EF into the "MMRCA tender" BUT, since Dassault lead the negotiations into an impasse and was not compliant to the tender rules, the L1 had to be disqualified and the tender cancelled anyway. So MMRCA like it was, was not going anywhere.

What the GoI therfore should have done, was to cancel the MMRCA first and then ask the vendor of the 2nd complying fighter, for a G2G proposal for 126 fighters + licence production in India (just as Dassault gave the NDA government for the Mirage 2000). That would had been the fastest alternative to the MMRCA impasse, while retaining our objectives!

Since that's a separate deal, it's also not bound under the MMRCA tender rules and if the EF partners would have made a good deal, we could have ended the MMRCA right away.
If they didn't, the government could have issued a new MMRCA tender under their requirements, which they did eventually.

Now we have rewarded Dassault with a 9 billion deal, for blocking 3 years of negotiations and putting Indias defence and IAF pilots in danger!

Even if the government had decided to cancel MMRCA and re-issue the MMRCA 2.0 in 2015, we could had been in the final selection by now. If they had issued the SE MMRCA, we would already be done. So we wasted 3+ years, that could have given a better solution and outcome for IAF.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Browne had nothing to do with it, since the procedure is given by MoD according to the DPP.



True, there was no way back in for the EF into the "MMRCA tender" BUT, since Dassault lead the negotiations into an impasse and was not compliant to the tender rules, the L1 had to be disqualified and the tender cancelled anyway. So MMRCA like it was, was not going anywhere.

What the GoI therfore should have done, was to cancel the MMRCA first and then ask the vendor of the 2nd complying fighter, for a G2G proposal for 126 fighters + licence production in India (just as Dassault gave the NDA government for the Mirage 2000). That would had been the fastest alternative to the MMRCA impasse, while retaining our objectives!

Since that's a separate deal, it's also not bound under the MMRCA tender rules and if the EF partners would have made a good deal, we could have ended the MMRCA right away.
If they didn't, the government could have issued a new MMRCA tender under their requirements, which they did eventually.

Now we have rewarded Dassault with a 9 billion deal, for blocking 3 years of negotiations and putting Indias defence and IAF pilots in danger!

Even if the government had decided to cancel MMRCA and re-issue the MMRCA 2.0 in 2015, we could had been in the final selection by now. If they had issued the SE MMRCA, we would already be done. So we wasted 3+ years, that could have given a better solution and outcome for IAF.

If the GoI had cancelled the tender and refloated it without this deal then we would today be at 0 planes incoming and another 7 years to go if we were lucky to sign the deal (3 selection + 3 delay + 1 refloating tender).

Now we have rewarded Dassault with a 9 billion deal, for blocking 3 years of negotiations and putting Indias defence and IAF pilots in danger!

Are you fucking kidding me? Pappu used that same exact line at some meet and greet a few days ago. This is a perfect example of a Freudian slip.

IAF pilots getting a fully MKI-ised product aka Rafale which can taken on J 20 in the foreseeable future and being able to shadow clause in 110 more via new tender is an amazing deal!

 

[vampyrbladez]

2017 was the original delivery date for the 140 contract, that's where delays occurred.
The current production of the last batch of 42 is on track, since it was planned to end around 2019 and then divert to FGFA production. Because of the FGFA cancellation, the line will now be diverted to MKI overhaul and upgrade.

Air Chief Dhanoa in the same press conference where is stated the "programme" delays, also stated this =>

HAL is running behind schedule so badly they can't even produce 6 LCA this year! This is during peacetime!
Can you imagine a wartime scenario?

All these people fudged up Su 30 MKI production and have to order from Russia to meet their quotas!

India bought 50 Su-30 MKI jets directly from Russia in “flyway condition”, and 140 the jets were to be manufactured by HAL in its Nashik plant. Later, IAF placed two additional orders for the jet with the company for 40 and 42 jets respectively, thereby increasing the total order for HAL to 222 jets.

The first order of 140 jets was to be delivered by 2014-15. But HAL has built 107 fighters for that order and 33 planes are yet to be built. For the next two orders, HAL directly bought some fighters from Russian and delivered them to IAF, to bridge the gap in deliveries.

https://www.opindia.com/2018/10/hal...-production-concessions-by-air-force-reports/

 

[smestarz]

Not really...The payment is going from GoI to GoF to Dassault, Dassault will be declaring in its balance sheets the commerical deals and the value will be in that wont it? So how would Dassault then hide the difference? Rather Dassault will be actually getting less than what it would declare. Sounds like a scam.
All what you explain is speculation, and by that standards, the Indian deal for S-400 can also incorporate the investment for development of Su-57 ? GoI might be secretly interested in Su-57 because they have informed that they would be interested in Su-57 in near future.. So unless there are credible links, you best not speculate things that are beyond facts.. Stick to the facts and dont go to speculations

The two sides said that these 36 fighters was part of a most complete deal...
We know that India was interested in tactical missile assistance, in nuclear warheads design, in SSN.
And the 50% offsets, without a so huge Dassault investment can hide part of these things.
Another reason to hide all the details of the deal...

 

[smestarz]

Modifications or India specific enhancements will be kept secret, now what some other french members are speculating,, thats just short of saying, that we shall be getting French nukes. and that my friend is called Speculations.

The 50% offset clause mainly deals with competitive pricing and infrastructure and tech gains. These deals are secretive to not allow other countries to take a peak and demand same conditions for their deal.

Also certain modifications were made by IAF which are kept secret as they deal with EW measures, etc.

 

[smestarz]

I do not think you really followed MRCA that closely. Let me clarify somethings for you and there are credible links for it too.

a) During cost calculations there were many "miscellaneous" items in Dassault bid which were not included in the cost calculations and these costs were assumed (given by NAK Browne) Two of the CNC members had voiced their objections (in writing) On other hand Eurofighter bid was complete.
b) Since the assumed cost of "miscelleneous" were low, the Dassualt bid was found to be lower and they were declared L1, but seems later they found that the Miscelleanous were actually quite significant and also critcal and hence if these items were actually added, Dassault would not be declared L1. But unfortunately since MoD had already decelared L1 it would have been embarassing to go back.
c) During negotaitions, Dassault came with objections about HAL being the lead integrator and said that they would like their local partner (Reliance) and were not willing to work with HAL as lead integrator citing that the cost would go up by 2.7 times etc and also that they would not be able to guarantee the 108 planes handled by HAL. Now this condition was part of RFP which all the entrants including EADS, Dassault had signed, and now Dassault was having objections to it.
d) The deal was not going anywhere since, the way NAK Browne had managed it was that the deal had to be discussed with L1 only, and even if the discussions was blocked due to some situations, we could not discuss with L2. Thus there was no solution, NAK Browne had in a way ensured that it will be Rafale only.
e) Germany, in order to sell their Eurofighters had offered planes at discounted prices, which was much cheaper than Rafale, but the policy of the MRCA competition ensured that such discussion was not allowed.

Do remember the facts that performance wise, IAF was satisfied with both Eurofighter and Rafale, and Rafale was only lower bidder.. Get your facts right.

L2 had two fighters and Rafale won out by competitive pricing and tech. Eurofighter was less high tech but had last minute price revision. This is in violation of DPP 2013. Hence last minute offer was not considered.

 

[smestarz]

So, what is your problem in this? Incidentally HAL is involved in more planes than Dassault is.

@smestarz @Sancho @vampyrbladez @Prashant12 @Armand2REP

India’s HAL overruns aircraft building and upgrade deadlines

A recent internal MoD report revealed that HAL has also only licence-built 197 of the 222 Sukhoi Su-30MKI multi-role fighters it was contracted to deliver to the IAF by 2017, officials told Jane’s on condition of anonymity. The 25 remaining platforms are only expected to be handed over by 2020–21, they added.

The report also pointed to a five-year delay in the series-production of the indigenously developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), 20 units of which were initially scheduled to have entered service by early 2017.



https://www.janes.com/article/83895/india-s-hal-overruns-aircraft-building-and-upgrade-deadlines