Know Your 'Rafale'

smestarz

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Maybe you did not notice that some of the Su-30 MKIs are being modified to carry Brahmos, So, maybe few years delay is acceptable when it comes to getting a plane that can strike at the heart of pakistan, as and when we want. I can accept this delay.

HAL is running behind schedule so badly they can't even produce 6 LCA this year! This is during peacetime!
Can you imagine a wartime scenario?

All these people fudged up Su 30 MKI production and have to order from Russia to meet their quotas!



https://www.opindia.com/2018/10/hal...-production-concessions-by-air-force-reports/
 

power_monger

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Govt instead of allowing HAL to reform, is targeting it. Given free hand, HAL can reform itself. But giving freedom to bring reforms, dismantle facilities no more productive can improve it's track record. Instead govt allows free bashing of HAL
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Govt instead of allowing HAL to reform, is targeting it. Given free hand, HAL can reform itself. But giving freedom to bring reforms, dismantle facilities no more productive can improve it's track record. Instead govt allows free bashing of HAL
This is very cheap. HAL does perform efficiently. People give small orders and blame HAL for high cost. The coat of infrastructure is simply ignored.

This is done to counter Rafale deal allegations. Instead of directly attacking conhrconfor sabotage of LCA and accusing them of treason, arresting AK.Antony etc for sabotage, Govt is resorting to cheap means of deriding HAL. It must be spoken in no uncertain terms that private industry has to be developed from scratch because of congress sabotage. Hence inexperienced people have to be given opportunity directly.
 

Armand2REP

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cyclops

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Former French air force official contradicts Congress on Rafale
Congress held a power-packed press conference on Rafale deal where it showed a piece of a document claiming it would "take the lid of Modi government's murky sweetheart deal in the Rafale Scam."


    • Ankit Kumar
  • New Delhi
  • October 18, 2018
  • UPDATED: October 18, 2018 00:02 IST


Earlier, the French journal Mediapart cited the alleged internal Dassault document to indicate that the offset partnership with Reliance was obligatory. Reuters file photo
HIGHLIGHTS
  • The Congress flashed a piece of document, saying it would take the lid of Modi's government
  • India Today spoke to former French air force official who first published these two documents
  • Pagot doesn't think there was any corruption or favouritism in Rafale deal

Congress party on Wednesday held a power-packed press conference on Rafale deal where it showed a piece of document claiming it would "take the lid of Modi government's murky sweetheart deal in the Rafale Scam."

The press conference was addressed by party's communication in-charge Randeep Singh Surjewala and senior leaders including Ashok Gehlot and Sachin Pilot, where Congress spokespersons presented a dossier of two documents from "minutes of the meetings between Dassault Aviation and two French trade unions".

Earlier French publication Mediapart also carried a news report quoting Dassault Aviation COO Loïk Segalen from one of these two documents without publishing the original document.

India Today has spoken to former French air force official and researcher Yves Pagot, who first published these two documents on his website Portail-Aviation.Com.

Talking to India Today from Paris over the phone, Pagot said, "In my personal opinion and going by the evidence which is available, I don't think there was any corruption or favouritism in Rafale deal."

Read | Another Dassault document givesfresh twist to Mediapart's Rafale story

Pagot pointed out that mention of the joint venture with Reliance could have been driven by the second part of the document which was missed by Mediapart and Congress party. "I don't understand as to why the second part of this first document has not been quoted. In this part, trade unions are complaining about the job loss due to work transfer to India, so maybe that's why," he said.

Pagot, who has retired from Air Force and is now active in research and academics said that he was surprised to read the reports of forced partnership in this deal because it would never work.

"I was shocked to read Mediapart's second report where they quoted an unpublished internal report from Dassault, because it wasn't an internal secret document, it was a trade union document," Pagot revealed.

Pagot said that he would not guess as to why a particular page from a presentation was quoted in French media which according to Pagot had "ambiguity in language", while another document from the same meeting held between Dassault and trade unions with a clearer language was overlooked.

According to Pagot, the second document which is from a presentation made before French trade union Confédération française démocratique du travail (CFDT) clearly reads that it was 'Make in India' which was "the inevitable consequence" of the deal and the joint venture with Reliance was created to attain this goal.

Pagot didn't comment as to why these facts were missing from the two series investigation of French publication Mediapart but said, "They are usually very good with their investigation but have been on the wrong side of politics around Dassault."

Pagot went further to advice the French publication to issue a clarification regarding their stories on Rafale. "I think they (Mediapart) should issue a clarification now," Pagot told India Today.

Asked if he was in anyway associated with Dassault, Pagot denied and said, "I don't have any commercial association with Rafale or Dassault, but I can tell you that it's a world-class fighter jet, the best in its class."

Asked about the politics around changing price tag of these jets and the offset money involved, Pagot said, "It's incredibly difficult to put a price tag here, it's like buying a house under different conditions, the more Rafales are bought, the more offsets would go back to India."

Earlier the Congress party's communication in-charge Randeep Surjewala quoted these very documents to allege "fresh documents have reinforced the fact that PM Modi facilitated a sweetheart deal to enormously and illegitimately benefit a crony friend i.e. Reliance Defence."

The Indian and French governments have maintained that while it was a government to government deal, Dassault was free to choose the offset partners.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...radicts-congress-on-rafale-1370217-2018-10-18
 

BON PLAN

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Former French air force official contradicts Congress on Rafale
Congress held a power-packed press conference on Rafale deal where it showed a piece of a document claiming it would "take the lid of Modi government's murky sweetheart deal in the Rafale Scam."


    • Ankit Kumar
  • New Delhi
  • October 18, 2018
  • UPDATED: October 18, 2018 00:02 IST


Earlier, the French journal Mediapart cited the alleged internal Dassault document to indicate that the offset partnership with Reliance was obligatory. Reuters file photo
HIGHLIGHTS
  • The Congress flashed a piece of document, saying it would take the lid of Modi's government
  • India Today spoke to former French air force official who first published these two documents
  • Pagot doesn't think there was any corruption or favouritism in Rafale deal

Congress party on Wednesday held a power-packed press conference on Rafale deal where it showed a piece of document claiming it would "take the lid of Modi government's murky sweetheart deal in the Rafale Scam."

The press conference was addressed by party's communication in-charge Randeep Singh Surjewala and senior leaders including Ashok Gehlot and Sachin Pilot, where Congress spokespersons presented a dossier of two documents from "minutes of the meetings between Dassault Aviation and two French trade unions".

Earlier French publication Mediapart also carried a news report quoting Dassault Aviation COO Loïk Segalen from one of these two documents without publishing the original document.

India Today has spoken to former French air force official and researcher Yves Pagot, who first published these two documents on his website Portail-Aviation.Com.

Talking to India Today from Paris over the phone, Pagot said, "In my personal opinion and going by the evidence which is available, I don't think there was any corruption or favouritism in Rafale deal."

Read | Another Dassault document givesfresh twist to Mediapart's Rafale story

Pagot pointed out that mention of the joint venture with Reliance could have been driven by the second part of the document which was missed by Mediapart and Congress party. "I don't understand as to why the second part of this first document has not been quoted. In this part, trade unions are complaining about the job loss due to work transfer to India, so maybe that's why," he said.

Pagot, who has retired from Air Force and is now active in research and academics said that he was surprised to read the reports of forced partnership in this deal because it would never work.

"I was shocked to read Mediapart's second report where they quoted an unpublished internal report from Dassault, because it wasn't an internal secret document, it was a trade union document," Pagot revealed.

Pagot said that he would not guess as to why a particular page from a presentation was quoted in French media which according to Pagot had "ambiguity in language", while another document from the same meeting held between Dassault and trade unions with a clearer language was overlooked.

According to Pagot, the second document which is from a presentation made before French trade union Confédération française démocratique du travail (CFDT) clearly reads that it was 'Make in India' which was "the inevitable consequence" of the deal and the joint venture with Reliance was created to attain this goal.

Pagot didn't comment as to why these facts were missing from the two series investigation of French publication Mediapart but said, "They are usually very good with their investigation but have been on the wrong side of politics around Dassault."

Pagot went further to advice the French publication to issue a clarification regarding their stories on Rafale. "I think they (Mediapart) should issue a clarification now," Pagot told India Today.

Asked if he was in anyway associated with Dassault, Pagot denied and said, "I don't have any commercial association with Rafale or Dassault, but I can tell you that it's a world-class fighter jet, the best in its class."

Asked about the politics around changing price tag of these jets and the offset money involved, Pagot said, "It's incredibly difficult to put a price tag here, it's like buying a house under different conditions, the more Rafales are bought, the more offsets would go back to India."

Earlier the Congress party's communication in-charge Randeep Surjewala quoted these very documents to allege "fresh documents have reinforced the fact that PM Modi facilitated a sweetheart deal to enormously and illegitimately benefit a crony friend i.e. Reliance Defence."

The Indian and French governments have maintained that while it was a government to government deal, Dassault was free to choose the offset partners.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...radicts-congress-on-rafale-1370217-2018-10-18
The french article is ..... slightly different !

http://www.portail-aviation.com/blog/2018/10/14/epopee-du-rafale-en-inde-les-documents/
 

Sancho

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Now you start to invent new things hahahaha
:biggrin2: When they don't have argument's, they just make something up.
Somehow a Rafale deal in the aviation field, got us SSN know how, that a Scorpene deal in the naval field itself, didn't got us.
 

Sancho

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If the GoI had cancelled the tender and refloated it without this deal then we would today be at 0 planes incoming and another 7 years to go if we were lucky to sign the deal (3 selection + 3 delay + 1 refloating tender)
MMRCA 1.0 - if signed in 2015 with the standard 3 year delivery time line => first delivery of Rafale in 2018!!!

36 Rafale or EF deal signed in 2016 => first delivery in 2019

SE MMRCA issued in 2015 after canceling MMRCA 1.0 and without wasting time on 36 Rafales => signed in 2016 => first delivery in 2019

There is no fast tracking in the 36 Rafale deal, because it's bound to the same standard delivery time line and the production capacity of Dassaults line. It's nothing but a bad stop gap by the PM, that neither helps IAF, nor our industry.
 

Sancho

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I cannot Google translate the screenshot of the reports(obviously).
Can you enlighten us, what exactly does it say?
The whole issue is just a matter of translation and interpretation. The earlier French media reports, suggested that Dassault had official documents, that stated that the JV with Reliance was mandatory and therefore would confirm President Hollande's allegations of cronyism by GoI/PM. The new documents in the latest reports, also talk about Reliance as a JV partner, but puts a question mark on what exactly was mandatory, the JV with Reliance or the offsets itself.

Either way, it doesn't disprove the statements by the President and so far, there is no Indian or French official source, that claimed Hollande would be wrong.
 

BON PLAN

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I cannot Google translate the screenshot of the reports(obviously).
Can you enlighten us, what exactly does it say?
"For many weeks, the Indian influence of Rahul Ghandi's Congress party has been trying to exploit the purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft at India Reliance rather than the traditional public aircraft manufacturer HAL. This controversy, fueled by one clumsy of the President, Holland, during an interview, a press release recently made public. An "internal document" made available by Dassault Aviation.

Thanks to our contacts, we were able to obtain this family document which proved, according to Mediapart, that the company Reliance was imposed on France and France by the Indian government. It should be noted that you will not need a report or an "internal document".

This is the union summary of a meeting (CEC, mandatory under French law), presenting the effects of the offsets imposed on the defense contract (50% of counterparties) and the policy "Make in India " Voluntarily, we will not conclude, so as not to trigger unnecessary polemics. Here is the report, together with another report, from another union. To you to make your own opinion and tell us if: "Reliance was a company imposed by the Indian government after the offsets? or not ". "




The leaflet of the CGT, a powerful ex communist labor union, expresses its surprise (rather than the fact that it does not believe at all) that the Indian contract will generate hiring. A complete presentation of "make in india" was made, with the creation of Dassault Reliance Aerospace. And that Dassault had to accept this counterpart to create a local industrial base to get the indian contract (the CGT union wants him 100% of jobs in France ...).
No mention in this leaflet that Reliance was imposed.



The leaflet of the Cfdt, a more open union in the German fashion, indicates that the creation of DRAL was the essential compensation for the Indian deal.
No mention that Reliance was taxed.
And the tract announces that there are a first site of 1800m ² which will be followed by another one of 11000m ². The development plan consists of 5 steps over 5 years.
In 2022 complete productions of Falcon will be produced
No mention in the Cfdt leaflet that Reliance was imposed to DA.
 

BON PLAN

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:biggrin2: When they don't have argument's, they just make something up.
Somehow a Rafale deal in the aviation field, got us SSN know how, that a Scorpene deal in the naval field itself, didn't got us.
You want SSK, we gave SSK.
You want SSN tech, we gave it under the Rafale deal compensations.

Ask USA some SSN techniques ...... :crying:
 

BON PLAN

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and the production capacity of Dassaults line
The Merignac Rafale line is now at a 2/month rate.
If the indian army budget was strong enough, it would have been easy to jump to 3/month. => All your order to be filled in 2 years (because there are the rest of Egyp and Qatar orders to built. And some for the french army).
 

BON PLAN

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The whole issue is just a matter of translation and interpretation. The earlier French media reports, suggested that Dassault had official documents, that stated that the JV with Reliance was mandatory and therefore would confirm President Hollande's allegations of cronyism by GoI/PM. The new documents in the latest reports, also talk about Reliance as a JV partner, but puts a question mark on what exactly was mandatory, the JV with Reliance or the offsets itself.

Either way, it doesn't disprove the statements by the President and so far, there is no Indian or French official source, that claimed Hollande would be wrong.
Read my translation, WITHOUT INTERPRETATION.

Hollande was as a president and now as a citizen, a marionette. To day he is just the sex friend of an average actress.... Nothing more. Macron or LeDrian will never belittle themselves to contradict him.
 

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