Know Your 'Rafale'

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

That is not slap on face dear, that would be eggs on French face. Whatever Hollande has said and if its rightly interpreted (Hollande did say and mean what is translated) then it would effectively CAP the Rafale order at 36.
Then Guess which plane IN has to select ??? F/A-18

F18 is ruled out by all means. It is MiG35 that will be the jet used for navy

 

[Indrajit]

F18 is ruled out by all means. It is MiG35 that will be the jet used for navy

Actually if Donald Trump continues in the way he has so far, we may simply have no choice but to buy F18 to try and bridge the trade surplus that is in our favor.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Actually if Donald Trump continues in the way he has so far, we may simply have no choice but to buy F18 to try and bridge the trade surplus that is in our favor.

India sends tourists and other services to USA. Also, trade surplus of India also has a political angle. USA lives on petrodollars and if India destabilises Middle east by being hostile, USA will crumble. So, Middle east and USA have to pay India to maintain calm and not wage war on enemy countries like Pakistan or other enemy people despite provocation. If India gets nothing but only problems, then India will not hesitate in attacking. So, it is USA's duty to give some extra to India as a favour to "tolerate" problems

 

[Armand2REP]

So when you compare FGFA (Su-57) vs Rafale, Rafale is an old figher that was designed in last century, The engine is underpowered (and they spin this disadvantage as good for range haha) Further FGFA can carry bigger load of internal fuel and also ability to carry weapons internally and thus the RCS will be low and consistent, but this is not the case of Rafale, It is funny when French fanboys are trying to call FGFA expensive when we are not really aware of the price. The only thing that IAF talked about is that they were not happy about the performance as that time the Su-57 was tested with 4th Gen engine.

5th Gen planes offer better survivability, due to VLO which Rafale is unable to offer. Also if going to war, its always better to go with an unfair advantage which an FGFA will bring, Rafale is a 4th gen plane which can be taken down by other 4th gen planes, but this is not the case with 5th Gen plane..

We already know the price Russia was offering for FGFA. They wanted $4.6 billion up front as R&D cost and every copy would be $100 million each. The Rafale has no R&D cost for India because France already paid it and each copy is $91 million. The Su-57 in its current form is nothing but an overpriced Su-35 as it lacks the next gen engines and AESA radar it is supposed to have. Even Russia is refusing to buy it in numbers until all of the components are completed.

The Su-57 isn't VLO, it is in a similar class to the Rafale in the RCS when it is produced to a high quality. After the inspection by the IAF they found bolts and poorly fitted construction that degraded the Su-57's stealth characteristics. The Rafale is built to much higher tolerances and precision which is part of the reason HAL refused to guarantee their work. They can get away with low tolerance producing Russian aircraft, but Dassault will not tolerate it. As we have discovered the Su-57 has to carry an external navigation pod to land in poor weather and navigate at low altitude. It is going to live it's life carrying things on external pylons so the stealth is already compromised.

Also every country in the world has limited resources and money. So India had to order say 140+ Tejas which will replace MiG-21, so where would the fund for 126 MRCA come from? Its not only matter of purchase, but also operations and maintenance.. So who pays for that? Mirage 2000 and Rafale are good planes but they dont bring something to the table which we dont have. Deep strike in Pakistan, we have Su-30 MKI which can do it, Deep strike in China, .. Rafale cannot go deep till guangzhou, and if it has to go till Guangzhou due to its short legs it would not be able to carry any warload that is significant, on other hand, India is developing missiles like Prahaar which can be air launched and has a range of 1000 kms and that surely puts Guangzhou or even Shanghai within the range of Su-30 MKI, but Rafale simply does not have the ability to carry this missile.

The production of MKI is coming to an end, that money will go into the purchase of more Rafale as long as BJP wins next year. The M2000 upgrade will be completed soon and that money will procure more Tejas. Rafale can fly anywhere it wants as we have seen from Syria the S-400 could not even detect it. It flew 7500km round trip for that strike mission, it is battle tested and ready to fight for India. With the ability for buddy-buddy refueling, it can go where tanked aircraft cannot. While the Rafale is not pure stealth, when it conducts its mission in the penetration strike role as it was designed, it is virtually undetectable from above. Coupled with stand off weapons, there is no stopping it.

 

[tamilandhindu]

Actually if Donald Trump continues in the way he has so far, we may simply have no choice but to buy F18 to try and bridge the trade surplus that is in our favor.

I would just try to move our oil imports or some expensive import to the US.

 

[tamilandhindu]

India sends tourists and other services to USA. Also, trade surplus of India also has a political angle. USA lives on petrodollars and if India destabilises Middle east by being hostile, USA will crumble. So, Middle east and USA have to pay India to maintain calm and not wage war on enemy countries like Pakistan or other enemy people despite provocation. If India gets nothing but only problems, then India will not hesitate in attacking. So, it is USA's duty to give some extra to India as a favour to "tolerate" problems

The USA is more likely to want to destablize the Middle East. The EU has always had a focus on North Africa, whereas the USA and the Realms have always bombed the central MIddle East. I just wished the two took a harder stance against Pakistan - albeit we'd need a massive wall to stop the refugees.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

We already know the price Russia was offering for FGFA. They wanted $4.6 billion up front as R&D cost and every copy would be $100 million each. The Rafale has no R&D cost for India because France already paid it and each copy is $91 million.

Su57 has ToT agreement whereas rafale does not. That is where money is coming to be extra R&D cost. So, rafale is not comparable

The Su-57 isn't VLO, it is in a similar class to the Rafale in the RCS when it is produced to a high quality.

That is a lie. Rafale without EW has 1m^2 RCS and that is pretty high and is a LO plane, not VLO. VLO plane has RCS<0.1m^2 without EW.

The production of MKI is coming to an end, that money will go into the purchase of more Rafale as long as BJP wins next year.

Why will Su30 be discontinued? It is still an Indian plane, There is no reason to discontinue Su30. It is in no way inferior to any other 4.5 generation plane

 

[WolfPack86]

F-18 Advanced Super Hornet will be manufacture by HAL and Mahindra.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The USA is more likely to want to destablize the Middle East. The EU has always had a focus on North Africa, whereas the USA and the Realms have always bombed the central MIddle East. I just wished the two took a harder stance against Pakistan - albeit we'd need a massive wall to stop the refugees.

First of all, USA wants stability in middle east oil supply. Without the oil supply, USA economy is gone and so is world economy. So, if that gets destroyed, there will be no petrodollar.

Refugees will be shot at the border in wars. Only during peace time, people don't shoot as escalation is unnecessary. But in wartime, there will be no mercy.

USA needs India to keep quiet and hence has to make compromises. USA allied with Pakistan till Modi came and issued a direct threat. That created jitters in USA and middle east who agreed to compromise. It is not terror but Modi's threat that has cornered Pakistan

 

[WolfPack86]

Breaking now: the office of the former French President Francois Hollande tells NDTV he stands by his statement on Rafale.

 

[tamilandhindu]

First of all, USA wants stability in middle east oil supply. Without the oil supply, USA economy is gone and so is world economy. So, if that gets destroyed, there will be no petrodollar.

Refugees will be shot at the border in wars. Only during peace time, people don't shoot as escalation is unnecessary. But in wartime, there will be no mercy.

USA needs India to keep quiet and hence has to make compromises. USA allied with Pakistan till Modi came and issued a direct threat. That created jitters in USA and middle east who agreed to compromise. It is not terror but Modi's threat that has cornered Pakistan

The US has never thought about stability in the Middle East. It's actively wanting to bomb Iran - one of the largest oil producers in the ME. http://247wallst.com/energy-economy...icient-by-2019-as-crude-oil-production-rises/

 

[Armand2REP]

Su57 has ToT agreement whereas rafale does not. That is where money is coming to be extra R&D cost. So, rafale is not comparable

Why will Su30 be discontinued? It is still an Indian plane, There is no reason to discontinue Su30. It is in no way inferior to any other 4.5 generation plane

I don't like repeating myself so refer here...

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-728#post-1451721

That is a lie. Rafale without EW has 1m^2 RCS and that is pretty high and is a LO plane, not VLO. VLO plane has RCS<0.1m^2 without EW.

Rafale has an RCS of 0.3m^2 in clean configuration, that is below average for the LO planes, lower than Super Hornet, Su-57 and Eurofighter. VLO is only F-35 and F-22.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The US has never thought about stability in the Middle East. It's actively wanting to bomb Iran - one of the largest oil producers in the ME. http://247wallst.com/energy-economy...icient-by-2019-as-crude-oil-production-rises/

USA is doing so with GCC countries' help. Iran and Saudi dispute is the reason why USA is emboldened. If none supports, it won't work. Saudis are ready to supply extra oil if Iran is sanctioned or taken out. That gives USA the confidence. Otherwise, it is unwise for USA to disrupt oil supply

 

[smestarz]

India first paid part of Development cost of US$ 500 million and later the Russians asked for US$ 4.6 Billion as indias share. Which India did not agree because there was no clarity on IPR.

Price of the plane US$ 100 million is it from official source or unnamed official? Also since you know much, please do enlighten me. Does it come with Item 30 engine or AL-41 FP? Also what weapons package will be provided, What about the agreement for spares etc?

Earlier Germany, France, Italy and Spain were developing ACF, and then France decided to go their own way, so France were developing the plane for themselves and so they had to pay for it. Of course part of the development cost would be recovered from Indian sales also. But if yu say that R&D cost was not taken from India then you are a bit mistaken. The cost of India specific developments (the ability to fire Akash missiles and India specific weapons) are part of the package and the cost of this is about US$ 1 billion, So you still tell me that this cost is not overpriced? If you consider 1 billion dollars for 36 planes paid extra that comes to 27 million and that would take the cost of Rafale well over 100 million. So an old 4th Gen design with India specific requirements cost of rougly 110 million, So if Su-57 with its latest design and avionics cost about 100 million, I might say its a steal.

Su-35 has the PESA Irbis radar that has scan range of 400 kms, and it has its own advantages. The Russians do not have a problem to add an AESA. They have developed one for Su-57.

This is one thing about Rafale fanboys, Everything they try to comparable with Rafale even when its not comparable. Su-57 as per many experts is comparable to F-22 in terms of ability.

Russians do not see the use of Su-57 as of now, but they are ordering a dozen because they have to develop their tactics for the new plane, Even when IAF gets the new planes they first batch will be used to test and develop tactics for the plane. Su-35 / Su-30 BM are good designs and more than capable than any Western 4th gen plane (that also includes Rafale) and the Russians do not see a reason to field a 5th Gen plane as main combat plane as of now when the 5th Gen planes are limited. Surely the cost of plane is higher than Su-35 and it makes more econimic sense to use Su-35 as there are hardly any planes that can face Su-35. The moment the Russians feel threatened by the Americans, they would ramp up the production of Su-57 and get them in numbers that they need.

Are you aware that Sukhoi had given IAF a proposal that they would ensure the availability rate of 75% for all Su-30 MKI? And those means also the ones produced by HAL.. Where as Dassault wet it pants when they were to sign HAL as chief integrator coming up with all the excuses for refusing to do so.

Much of the things that you talk of Su-57 will be ironed out sooner.

You mean to say rafale traveled 7500 kms without refueling? This is the thing I should read.. do post the links.

buuddy refueling? Even MiG-29 does buddy refueling, its not something unique to Rafale.. try not to spin it lits like something great. Both MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI are capable of buddy refueling..

We already know the price Russia was offering for FGFA. They wanted $4.6 billion up front as R&D cost and every copy would be $100 million each. The Rafale has no R&D cost for India because France already paid it and each copy is $91 million. The Su-57 in its current form is nothing but an overpriced Su-35 as it lacks the next gen engines and AESA radar it is supposed to have. Even Russia is refusing to buy it in numbers until all of the components are completed.

The Su-57 isn't VLO, it is in a similar class to the Rafale in the RCS when it is produced to a high quality. After the inspection by the IAF they found bolts and poorly fitted construction that degraded the Su-57's stealth characteristics. The Rafale is built to much higher tolerances and precision which is part of the reason HAL refused to guarantee their work. They can get away with low tolerance producing Russian aircraft, but Dassault will not tolerate it. As we have discovered the Su-57 has to carry an external navigation pod to land in poor weather and navigate at low altitude. It is going to live it's life carrying things on external pylons so the stealth is already compromised.



The production of MKI is coming to an end, that money will go into the purchase of more Rafale as long as BJP wins next year. The M2000 upgrade will be completed soon and that money will procure more Tejas. Rafale can fly anywhere it wants as we have seen from Syria the S-400 could not even detect it. It flew 7500km round trip for that strike mission, it is battle tested and ready to fight for India. With the ability for buddy-buddy refueling, it can go where tanked aircraft cannot. While the Rafale is not pure stealth, when it conducts its mission in the penetration strike role as it was designed, it is virtually undetectable from above. Coupled with stand off weapons, there is no stopping it.

 

[smestarz]

this is the kind of BS that Rafale fanboys are capable of spinning,
Do give us credible link to prove what you said.. Also about RCS of Su-57..

I don't like repeating myself so refer here...

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-728#post-1451721



Rafale has an RCS of 0.3m^2 in clean configuration, that is below average for the LO planes, lower than Super Hornet, Su-57 and Eurofighter. VLO is only F-35 and F-22.

 

[smestarz]

RCS (m2) RCS (dB)
automobile 100 20
B-52 100
B-1(A/B) 10
F-15 25
Su-27 15
cabin cruiser 10 10
Su-MKI 4
Mig-21 3
F-16 5
F-16C 1.2
man 1 0
F-18 1
Rafale 1
B-2 0.75 ?
Typhoon 0.5
Tomahawk SLCM 0.5
B-2 0.1 ?
A-12/SR-71 0.01 (22 in2)
bird 0.01 -20
F-35 / JSF 0.005 -30
F-117 0.003
insect 0.001 -30
F-22 0.0001 -40
B-2 0.0001 -40

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm

I don't like repeating myself so refer here...

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-728#post-1451721



Rafale has an RCS of 0.3m^2 in clean configuration, that is below average for the LO planes, lower than Super Hornet, Su-57 and Eurofighter. VLO is only F-35 and F-22.

 

[vampyrbladez]

RCS (m2) RCS (dB)
automobile 100 20
B-52 100
B-1(A/B) 10
F-15 25
Su-27 15
cabin cruiser 10 10
Su-MKI 4
Mig-21 3
F-16 5
F-16C 1.2
man 1 0
F-18 1
Rafale 1
B-2 0.75 ?
Typhoon 0.5
Tomahawk SLCM 0.5
B-2 0.1 ?
A-12/SR-71 0.01 (22 in2)
bird 0.01 -20
F-35 / JSF 0.005 -30
F-117 0.003
insect 0.001 -30
F-22 0.0001 -40
B-2 0.0001 -40

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm

Take global security info with a pinch of salt. They stopped updating after 2012 ish.

 

[WolfPack86]

JUST IN: MoD issues statement in response to @FHollande’s Rafale bombshell:
https://twitter.com/livefist?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

 

[indus]

India first paid part of Development cost of US$ 500 million and later the Russians asked for US$ 4.6 Billion as indias share. Which India did not agree because there was no clarity on IPR.

Price of the plane US$ 100 million is it from official source or unnamed official? Also since you know much, please do enlighten me. Does it come with Item 30 engine or AL-41 FP? Also what weapons package will be provided, What about the agreement for spares etc?

Earlier Germany, France, Italy and Spain were developing ACF, and then France decided to go their own way, so France were developing the plane for themselves and so they had to pay for it. Of course part of the development cost would be recovered from Indian sales also. But if yu say that R&D cost was not taken from India then you are a bit mistaken. The cost of India specific developments (the ability to fire Akash missiles and India specific weapons) are part of the package and the cost of this is about US$ 1 billion, So you still tell me that this cost is not overpriced? If you consider 1 billion dollars for 36 planes paid extra that comes to 27 million and that would take the cost of Rafale well over 100 million. So an old 4th Gen design with India specific requirements cost of rougly 110 million, So if Su-57 with its latest design and avionics cost about 100 million, I might say its a steal.

Su-35 has the PESA Irbis radar that has scan range of 400 kms, and it has its own advantages. The Russians do not have a problem to add an AESA. They have developed one for Su-57.

This is one thing about Rafale fanboys, Everything they try to comparable with Rafale even when its not comparable. Su-57 as per many experts is comparable to F-22 in terms of ability.

Russians do not see the use of Su-57 as of now, but they are ordering a dozen because they have to develop their tactics for the new plane, Even when IAF gets the new planes they first batch will be used to test and develop tactics for the plane. Su-35 / Su-30 BM are good designs and more than capable than any Western 4th gen plane (that also includes Rafale) and the Russians do not see a reason to field a 5th Gen plane as main combat plane as of now when the 5th Gen planes are limited. Surely the cost of plane is higher than Su-35 and it makes more econimic sense to use Su-35 as there are hardly any planes that can face Su-35. The moment the Russians feel threatened by the Americans, they would ramp up the production of Su-57 and get them in numbers that they need.

Are you aware that Sukhoi had given IAF a proposal that they would ensure the availability rate of 75% for all Su-30 MKI? And those means also the ones produced by HAL.. Where as Dassault wet it pants when they were to sign HAL as chief integrator coming up with all the excuses for refusing to do so.

Much of the things that you talk of Su-57 will be ironed out sooner.

You mean to say rafale traveled 7500 kms without refueling? This is the thing I should read.. do post the links.

buuddy refueling? Even MiG-29 does buddy refueling, its not something unique to Rafale.. try not to spin it lits like something great. Both MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI are capable of buddy refueling..

My two cents...
1. Comparison between Rafale and su57 is incorrect as the former is an inservice plane while the latter is under development. The dwindling squadron strength of IAF needs ready planes, not under development ones. So you shld adjust the timelines for Su57.
2. It was not Sukhoi that proposed 75% availability to Govt. Govt scolded IAF for the abyssmal operational readiness, and pushed the process to improve spares availability by signing long term agreements wth suppliers.

 

[scatterStorm]

Aside from RCS warfare on this thread, I like to divert your attention towards the breaking news my fellow forum members. It's now been clarified by NDTV that it was NAMO gov deliberately told the name of Reliance Defence to manufacture the jets. New Scam brewing?

Hmm, seems to me that there will be more Rafael's in the pipeline. Besides it's not new for a gov to support a business giant like Reliance defence, aakhir election ka chanda kaha sai ayega.(where will the funds come from for the upcoming election and many more to come in future) :biggrin2:

Bhaiyo Behno … oops no behno here, as the saying goes … "bik gayi hai yey gormint" (This government is sold)