Know Your 'Rafale'

vampyrbladez

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You are wrong by default unless you can prove that Russian or Indian EW is poor quality. You are trying to judge between people and claim that one person is better than the other. It is not about the existence of something or not which can be directly proven but needs a test result. So, I am asking for test result from which you derived the data.

You are only good at pasting useless pictures and acting smart
Lol! Your lack of knowledge is seeping through your posts! Are you a regular troll or just spam message boards to create 'buzz'.

This is a brand new Pantsir S1 AA system being wiped out by IAF (Israeli)

https://theaviationist.com/2018/05/...m-being-struck-in-last-night-attack-in-syria/

Here are examples of Syrian/Russian AA installations being knocked out left and right. If your EW game is bad, this generally doesn't happen.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...roy-syrian-sam-site-that-fired-on-recon-plane

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...orce-has-been-destroying-syrias-russian-25881
 

BON PLAN

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India proposed Reliance for Rafale deal, claims former French President Hollande

Adding fuel to the ongoing Rafale controversy, former French President François Hollande in an interview to a French online investigative and opinion journal said that Dassault Aviation was given no choice but to partner with Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence for the offset clause in the Rafale fighter jet deal. Reacting over this news, Defence ministry of India spoksperson tweeted "The report referring to fmr French president Mr. Hollande's statement that GOI insisted upon a particular firm as offset partner for the Dassault Aviation in Rafale is being verified. It is reiterated that neither GoI nor French Govt had any say in the commercial decision."
@Sancho @smestarz @StealthFlanker
TOO NICE !!!
A REAL SLAP IN THE FACE. :pound:
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Lol! Your lack of knowledge is seeping through your posts! Are you a regular troll or just spam message boards to create 'buzz'.

This is a brand new Pantsir S1 AA system being wiped out by IAF (Israeli)

https://theaviationist.com/2018/05/...m-being-struck-in-last-night-attack-in-syria/

Here are examples of Syrian/Russian AA installations being knocked out left and right. If your EW game is bad, this generally doesn't happen.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...roy-syrian-sam-site-that-fired-on-recon-plane

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...orce-has-been-destroying-syrias-russian-25881
All missile are upgraded during their life ! These were not built in the 70th.
Bad excuse.
At least it is a technology up to date to destroy a IL20. :clap2:
The Russian SAMs don't have EW jammers. Moreover, the system was manned incompetently. So, I don't see how Russian EW tech became bad.

Also, Russia and Israel have an agreement to not interfere in each others' operations
 

vampyrbladez

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The Russian SAMs don't have EW jammers. Moreover, the system was manned incompetently. So, I don't see how Russian EW tech became bad.

Also, Russia and Israel have an agreement to not interfere in each others' operations
Again utter rubbish and lack of information.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/624293/Israel-warplanes-Russian-air-defence-system

Igor Sutyagin, a Russian military expert with the Royal United Services Institute in London, said that for Israel training against the Crete S-300 would be "precisely what you need" to study the system's radar frequency, pattern and reach.

"If you know all these details then you are perfectly fitted to replicate this same signal, which means you have a chance to imitate, to sort of bluff-echo" the S-300, he said.

"You can brutally jam it," he said. "You can take the signal and return it, and then you send another ping which imitates the same signal. So instead of one target, the radar operator sees three, five or 10 and he does not know where to fire."

Tal Inbar, senior scholar for the Fisher Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies near Tel Aviv, said S-300s in areas where Israel operates or might want to operate would challenge its advanced, U.S.-backed military - but not insuperably so.
 

Kay

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What the new fuss about Holland's comment on rafale deal
Either Hollande is misinterpreted or is being economical with truth or this was Modi's payback to Ambani for election money.
In any case, this is a boon for India. After Bofors, no one dared buy artillery in India resulting in Dhanush and ATAGS.
After so much noise on Rafale, IAF has no choice but to back Tejas MK1A, MK2 and AMCA resulting in their success.
 

Armand2REP

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Either Hollande is misinterpreted or is being economical with truth or this was Modi's payback to Ambani for election money.
In any case, this is a boon for India. After Bofors, no one dared buy artillery in India resulting in Dhanush and ATAGS.
After so much noise on Rafale, IAF has no choice but to back Tejas MK1A, MK2 and AMCA resulting in their success.
The MMRCA competition was never a threat to Tejas or AMCA as it was the offsets that were going to help both programmes. It was FGFA that was going to eat all of that money.
 

tamilandhindu

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1) I still think that importing military hardware is a monumental waste of money, when that money could be better spent on research and development within the military-science complex of India. India fights wars which are either ridiculously easy to win (Middle East) or too hard to win (China).

2) Considering that it was a gift to his wife, he may have been given the gift but that may not mean he acted upon getting the gift - especially since the gift was for his wife and not himself.
 

indus

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In any case, this is a boon for India. After Bofors, no one dared buy artillery in India resulting in Dhanush and ATAGS.
After so much noise on Rafale, IAF has no choice but to back Tejas MK1A, MK2 and AMCA resulting in their success.
Incorrect conclusion. Bofors scandal broke in 1988 but successive Indian Govts did not develop any alternative for 3 decades. Its only the present Govt that took the risk and finalised different types of artillery like ULH, K9 Vajra, Dhanush, Atgas etc. This boon could have come earlier in time. But no one seemed interested.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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1) I still think that importing military hardware is a monumental waste of money, when that money could be better spent on research and development within the military-science complex of India. India fights wars which are either ridiculously easy to win (Middle East) or too hard to win (China).

2) Considering that it was a gift to his wife, he may have been given the gift but that may not mean he acted upon getting the gift - especially since the gift was for his wife and not himself.
India can't easily win war in ME as there are other players in the picture like NATO. China was an enemy of India due to failed policy of USA appeasement by Nehru. BJP will resolve the issue soon.

Also, Indian imports of military hardware today is mainly to get technology, not for usage. Getting technology is very important and is a shortcut to indigenisation
 

Enquirer

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Either Hollande is misinterpreted or is being economical with truth or this was Modi's payback to Ambani for election money.
In any case, this is a boon for India. After Bofors, no one dared buy artillery in India resulting in Dhanush and ATAGS.
After so much noise on Rafale, IAF has no choice but to back Tejas MK1A, MK2 and AMCA resulting in their success.
@BON PLAN @Neil
@Willy3

Hollande's statements have already been turned down by the current French government!

It's obvious that Hollande is trying to throw Modi/India under the bus to save his own skin.
Hollande is under fire that HE personally favored Reliance as Dassault's offset partner, because Reliance financed his girlfriend's movie. Hollande is desperate to show that he had no say in the matter & saying that 'India' recommended Reliance!

Hollande is so shaken up with the possibility of criminal charges against him that he's lost all sense of logic!!!
In a government-to-government contract (that explicitly states that the French companies are free to choose any Indian company), Hollande is in violation if he even 'passed on' Modi's recommendation over to Dassault!!

Hollande may or may-not have acted with corrupt intention in recommending or not-getting-involved-at-all; but the fact remains that the only clearest possible quid-pro-quo appears between that of Hollande and Reliance (& Hollande is clearly shaken by that appearance)!

Even if both Modi and Hollande are completely innocent, the possibility of Reliance funding Hollande's girlfriend's movie with a corrupt intent to influence Hollande is a very strong possibility (even if Dassault teamed up with Reliance purely based on merit)

Corrupt Congress politicians and the dumb Indian journalists don't understand the logic at all. They're all alarmists with a selfish intent!!
 
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Kay

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The MMRCA competition was never a threat to Tejas or AMCA as it was the offsets that were going to help both programmes. It was FGFA that was going to eat all of that money.
India originally wanted to buy Mirages as Tejas was getting delayed. Rafale and Tejas were never in competition but the single engine fighters in MMRCA are in the same tonnage class of MK2 (expected).
Prices have increased considerably since the inception of MMRCA and G2G transfer of any future Rafale purchase makes sense, but it's number will be much less than 120.
Rafale is a great aircraft but any defense purchase is loss of forex and is a price to be paid for our lack of knowledge and technology. It's a compromise that's best minimized. For me, RnD and local development is the way to go forward and should be emphasized.
We have 40+ Mirages. I think 120 is too large a number for Rafales.
 

Enquirer

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India originally wanted to buy Mirages as Tejas was getting delayed. Rafale and Tejas were never in competition but the single engine fighters in MMRCA are in the same tonnage class of MK2 (expected).
Prices have increased considerably since the inception of MMRCA and G2G transfer of any future Rafale purchase makes sense, but it's number will be much less than 120.
Rafale is a great aircraft but any defense purchase is loss of forex and is a price to be paid for our lack of knowledge and technology. It's a compromise that's best minimized. For me, RnD and local development is the way to go forward and should be emphasized.
We have 40+ Mirages. I think 120 is too large a number for Rafales.
Even if IAF had procured their desired 100+ Mirage2000s way back in year 2000, the need for Rafale like aircraft TWENTY years later would have been a clear possibility!!!
So, Mirages (or their numbers) should not be in equation at all when considering the new age fleet for 2020 onwards!!

IAF stupidly fell in love with Mirage 2000s because they performed well (in CAS roles) during Kargil! To think all future wars will entail bombing Himalayan peaks only where the enemy will not use its airforce is peurile!!! That's like loving your morning coffee and then immediately stacking up 4 liters of coffee so you can consume it as lunch & dinner later!
 
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smestarz

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"MMRCA competition was never a threat to Tejas or AMCA Do you see how you sound?
Let me reply to you pointwise.
1. IAF wanted more Mirage 2000 after Kargil, and these were sought to replace the aging fleet of MiG-21 which were close to their end of life time. Now as some of the jokers have been talking of weight class etc.. The original plane was to replace LIGHT FIGHTER AIRCRAFT with MEDIUM MRCA (French fanboys do term Mirage as Medium class dont they?)
So as some of the noted forumers here say that Light planes are light planes and cannot be replaced by heavy or Medium, so where was the IAFs intelligence in this? They were planning and going ahead with replacing a LCA(MiG-21) with an MCA (Mirage 2000) Tejas was being developed but due to Sanctions the development of Tejas was very slow as engine was not upto performance, Thus IAF did not want to go with Tejas (Imported airforce after all) So

2. Someone from bureaucracy thought that Mirage 2000-5 is much different than the original Mirage 2000 that would need a new RFI and cannot be taken as followon order. Thus started the MRCA.

3. French entered with Mirage 2000 which was already out of Production in France as France was producing Rafale, but still France thought to enter with Mirage 2000. So apparently the French were assured that Mirage 2000 would be selected no matter what.

4. When all the compeitors arrived. Mirage 2000 was the weakest of the lot and also it was NOT THE CHEAPEST. Thus if France had gone with Mirage 2000, then they would have lost it to others for performance and to MiG-35 in terms of performance and price. Thus later Dassault changed the Mirage 2000 entry with Rafale.
REMEMBER THIS COMPETITION WAS FOR REPLACING THE AGING MIG-21 OF IAF, and anyone who would call MiG-21 as Medium weight combat aircraft is a nut. So your point "MMRCA competition was never a threat to Tejas or AMCA " ,, fals flat.

Also every country in the world has limited resources and money. So India had to order say 140+ Tejas which will replace MiG-21, so where would the fund for 126 MRCA come from? Its not only matter of purchase, but also operations and maintenance.. So who pays for that? Mirage 2000 and Rafale are good planes but they dont bring something to the table which we dont have. Deep strike in Pakistan, we have Su-30 MKI which can do it, Deep strike in China, .. Rafale cannot go deep till guangzhou, and if it has to go till Guangzhou due to its short legs it would not be able to carry any warload that is significant, on other hand, India is developing missiles like Prahaar which can be air launched and has a range of 1000 kms and that surely puts Guangzhou or even Shanghai within the range of Su-30 MKI, but Rafale simply does not have the ability to carry this missile.

What FGFA brings is VLO by Design, Rafale is trying to depend on avionics for avoiding detection, but due to external loads and its design, no matter what, Rafale cannot be Stealthy, by design. Also when you have multiple radars scanning at different frenquencies it would be difficult for Rafale avionics to spoof them.

Already Rafale fanboys are exaggerating and trying to show that the RCS of Rafale is just bigger than F-22 hahahaha

So when you compare FGFA (Su-57) vs Rafale, Rafale is an old figher that was designed in last century, The engine is underpowered (and they spin this disadvantage as good for range haha) Further FGFA can carry bigger load of internal fuel and also ability to carry weapons internally and thus the RCS will be low and consistent, but this is not the case of Rafale, It is funny when French fanboys are trying to call FGFA expensive when we are not really aware of the price. The only thing that IAF talked about is that they were not happy about the performance as that time the Su-57 was tested with 4th Gen engine.

5th Gen planes offer better survivability, due to VLO which Rafale is unable to offer. Also if going to war, its always better to go with an unfair advantage which an FGFA will bring, Rafale is a 4th gen plane which can be taken down by other 4th gen planes, but this is not the case with 5th Gen plane..


The MMRCA competition was never a threat to Tejas or AMCA as it was the offsets that were going to help both programmes. It was FGFA that was going to eat all of that money.
 

smestarz

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You summed it up almost perfectly

Even if IAF had procured their desired 100+ Mirage2000s way back in year 2000, the need for Rafale like aircraft TWENTY years later would have been a clear possibility!!!
So, Mirages (or their numbers) should not be in equation at all when considering the new age fleet for 2020 onwards!!

IAF stupidly fell in love with Mirage 2000s because they performed well (in CAS roles) during Kargil! To think all future wars will entail bombing Himalayan peaks only where the enemy will not use its airforce is peurile!!! That's like loving your morning coffee and then immediately stacking up 4 liters of coffee so you can consume it as lunch & dinner later!
 

indus

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"
India is developing missiles like Prahaar which can be air launched and has a range of 1000 kms and that surely puts Guangzhou or even Shanghai within the range of Su-30 MKI, but Rafale simply does not have the ability to carry this missile.
One minor nitpick. Is it a typo 1000Kms air launched Prahar or you really believe so. :confused1:
 

smestarz

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I think its French problem that they cannot really translate to English.
Lets say this controversy stays, then GoI would in a way be forced to not select Rafale in the MMRCA 2.0
As any selection of Rafale further would be considered that GoI is trying to Favour Ambani and hence giving the order to Rafale.

That is not slap on face dear, that would be eggs on French face. Whatever Hollande has said and if its rightly interpreted (Hollande did say and mean what is translated) then it would effectively CAP the Rafale order at 36.
Then Guess which plane IN has to select ??? F/A-18 ..

BTW when you have eggs on the face the only positive thing to do is, make yourself an omlette

@Sancho @smestarz @StealthFlanker
TOO NICE !!!
A REAL SLAP IN THE FACE. :pound:
 

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