Know Your 'Rafale'

[WolfPack86]

Just in: IAF Deputy Chief Air Marshal Nambiar has just completed a front-seat sortie in a Rafale at the Istres air base in France. As reported, this was a Rafale testbed aircraft sporting India-specific software & system enhancements.

 

[BON PLAN]

First, I want to thank @BON PLAN as a person for translating the french documents and providing valuable information to us.
But, I am not very happy with this agreement of rafale in general :

This is the point. Rafale is only getting assembly and nothing else. This is not called production. I would not call anything as production if things like engines, softwares are not made in India. Can India integrate any missile or bomb system like Brahmos, it wants on rafale without asking Dassault or France to do it? France is not allowing India to integrate Meteor on Tejas, for example. I would call this assembly as a bad joke


Painted metal parts! Lol! They are then assembled in Nagpur! This is production? It is simply better to say nothing than exaggerate small things and appear cheap


France is helping India make pylons and adapters? Who do you think makes the pylons for Su30, Tejas etc? Seriously, is this meaningful production?


Another joke! India will manufacture drop tanks thanks to generous technology transfers from France! Who do you think makes Tejas drop tanks? What is the technology involved here at all?


Unless Falcon jets are made in india fully, this rafale deal will go down as a scam and nothing else. At least something must be given to India for $9 billion. Otherwise, it is just a rip-off. India does not need Rafale in 36 number or even 100. It is a total rip-off. India could make Su30 easily and did not have to waste so much of forex for rafale. France did not do anything worth $9 billion dollars. The $9 billion is worth only if there was significant technology, at least for Falcon jets or something which India does not have

First of all, to be honnest, it's not my translation job. It was done by another french forumer on another site.

MII.... ceo of Dassault only speak of the MII surrounding the sole batch already purchased : 36. Imagine 90, 114, 140 more and it will ba another story.

- It's just impossible (in fact it's possible, but so costly) to create for exemple a complete fundry for engine crystal blades just for 80 engines ! Don't forget that it's only 36 Rafale for the moment... Qatar ordered the same... Egypt is in the same pipe. A first order of 80 may have changed things.
- Producing painted or protected metal parts : who said it's only for the protection or paint phase? You will be able from a block of aluminium to machine it, control it, make the thermal treatment, and the finishing. And we are not only speaking of aluminium, but also titanium and composite parts.
- Pylon and adapter : some are made of steel... some of composite. Not the same job.
- Some hing must be given for 9 $billion? 36 up to date and fully indigenized planes, with a very high level support, with 2 air bases completely fitted, with all the training tools, and a complete weapon arsenal, including some of the best world class (Meteor, Scalp). AND 50% offset.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Some hing must be given for 9 $billion? 36 up to date and fully indigenized planes, with a very high level support, with 2 air bases completely fitted, with all the training tools, and a complete weapon arsenal, including some of the best world class (Meteor, Scalp). AND 50% offset.

Is scalp included too? Are you sure of this?

The 50% offset is nothing but the simple things - pylon, painted parts, external fuel tanks etc. These don't make much sense as offset.

Also, I have told repeatedly that India has enemies numbering hundreds of million in numbers and just 36 or even 150 planes are not enough. Numbers needed are in hundred thousands. So, unless technology is given, there is no point of getting the planes. I would have been happy with just 2 sample planes but partial technology for Falcon plane at least

 

[BON PLAN]

@Sancho @smestarz @StealthFlanker and some others...

Rafale Deal: Dassault, Boeing, US Ex-Envoy Flagged HAL’s Quality Control

Defence Ministry sources said that Roemer and Dassault, as well as top IAF officers, agree that quality would have been compromised had the HAL been the Indian partner of the French manufacturer.

After some French government officials were able to “lay their hands” on Roemer’s report, Dassault executives and specialists sought permission from the Defence Ministry, then under the stewardship of AK Antony of the Congress-led UPA, to visit HAL’s factory in Nashik where the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter jets were being produced at the time.
Once permission was granted, based on Dassault’s study of HAL’s Nashik facility the French government conveyed their displeasure over quality control once it was discovered that there were production-related problems over the manufacture of the SU-30s.
Dassault’s conclusion was that the company “could not risk its global reputation” by partnering with the HAL, as the latter’s production facilities in Nashik were “in shambles,” according to top IAF sources.

***

Boeing ends contract with HAL over ‘poor quality’ of production.

Boeing’s decision came after repeated reminders to HAL about its “poor quality” of production, sources said.
Boeing has over the last few years shifted its component sourcing requirements in India to private companies — Tata Group, Dynamatic Technologies, Rossell Techsys and others.

https://www.thequint.com/news/india/rafale-deal-dassault-us-envoy-unhappy-hal-quality-control
https://www.financialexpress.com/economy/boeing-ends-contract-with-hal/110345/

 

[BON PLAN]

Is scalp included too? Are you sure of this?

I think so. not 100% sure, but nearly.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Saying lol will not change anything. India does not even make diesel submarines which were made in WW2 an made nuclear submarine only in 2016. It was political sabotage of UPA that ruined Kaveri, not lack of scientific skills. Russia gave Al31F in 2015 and from FY2016, India has been making Al31F fully in India

Either prove it or shut up. We make shit from knockdown kits. Even China has been unable to get hold of crystal blade fan tech from Russia for same Al31F.

 

[mayfair]

Making from Raw materials is not the same as complete ToT.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Either prove it or shut up. We make shit from knockdown kits. Even China has been unable to get hold of crystal blade fan tech from Russia for same Al31F.

I have proven all of my points in different threads. If you want specific proof, tell me. Just because you are mentally unsound does not mean you just shout at anyone and everyone. You may make shit from knockdown kits but others don't

 

[mayfair]

I have proven all of my points in different threads. If you want specific proof, tell me. Just because you are mentally unsound does not mean you just shout at anyone and everyone. You may make shit from knockdown kits but others don't

You haven't. All you have done is repeat your claims that "India makes all the blade and has FADEC codes. 100% indigenous production of Al31FP"

I am still awaiting your sources that we have the full know-how and the know-why to make the blade.

Building from Raw material DOES NOT EQUAL full ToT.

 

[smestarz]

I would halfway agree with you that Russian stuff looks good on paper, Now your statement that it does not deliver. During the war with ISIS in Iraq and Syria, The Americans and the French were bombing the ISIS day in and day out for almost a year. The French were using their Mirage 2000 and Rafale with resounding success and yet the ISIS was getting stronger and getting more territory. and this is when the french and the American planes were conducting strikes as and when they pleased. The French hurt by the Paris attacks had vowed to destroy ISIS. So they had a good reason, and yet ISIS was getting more area under their control. Enter Russia with the "antique" Su-24, Tu-20 Badgers, Tu-144 Backfire which flew from Russia to conduct missions and back (just to show their capability) The Russians in just 6 months were able to change the tide of War, Almost destroying ISIS in the "Levant"
So why were the French and Americans not effective with their superior intelligence and superior firepower?
So having the best weapon does not make you superior, but having better plan of operations to destroy your enemy is whats important. You see, it works. The russian were not conducting "token" operations like the French. but they were hitting where it hurts most. So there you are...French stuff is good, but many times... just falls short

Russian stuff looks great on paper but doesn't deliver as hoped for. Case in point, all our hardware. Western stuff delivers exactly as specified. French stuff is a mid point between the two.

 

[smestarz]

What IAF upgrades and when it uupgrades thats the matter to be seen,
We are talking abt Super sukhoi upgrade for over a year !!!

Why do some people like you get stupid like this? What has weight of the plane to do with its ability? Does it always reflect? So since Su-30 MKI is heavier, it should be able to beat Rafale hands down? Or because Tejas is much lighter than Rafale it should beat Rafale hands down? Are you trying to get Rafale into "Medium weight" category boxing match? It is funny when people classify planes as per weight class.
IAF did that, and they are also the stupid buffoons who kept spares of just 50 crores when the required spares were Rs 3450 Crores. Also the same jokers who limited MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI to only air superiroty roles when Russia itself was also using them as MRCAs

SU 30MKI -> Upgrade = SU 35BM+

Mirage 2000 -> Medium Weight strike role -> Replacement = Rafale

 

[indus]

I would halfway agree with you that Russian stuff looks good on paper, Now your statement that it does not deliver. During the war with ISIS in Iraq and Syria, The Americans and the French were bombing the ISIS day in and day out for almost a year. The French were using their Mirage 2000 and Rafale with resounding success and yet the ISIS was getting stronger and getting more territory. and this is when the french and the American planes were conducting strikes as and when they pleased. The French hurt by the Paris attacks had vowed to destroy ISIS. So they had a good reason, and yet ISIS was getting more area under their control. Enter Russia with the "antique" Su-24, Tu-20 Badgers, Tu-144 Backfire which flew from Russia to conduct missions and back (just to show their capability) The Russians in just 6 months were able to change the tide of War, Almost destroying ISIS in the "Levant"
So why were the French and Americans not effective with their superior intelligence and superior firepower?
So having the best weapon does not make you superior, but having better plan of operations to destroy your enemy is whats important. You see, it works. The russian were not conducting "token" operations like the French. but they were hitting where it hurts most. So there you are...French stuff is good, but many times... just falls short

ISIS was getting stronger because the Americans, French were bombing public infrastructure in the name of WoT. They even bombed a hospital " by mistake" and a power station. I mean who does that. At other times they were bombing SAA positions. That s why IS was getting stronger. Real war against ISIS was fought by Russians only.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

You haven't. All you have done is repeat your claims that "India makes all the blade and has FADEC codes. 100% indigenous production of Al31FP"

I am still awaiting your sources that we have the full know-how and the know-why to make the blade.

Building from Raw material DOES NOT EQUAL full ToT.

I never said that India has know-why. Full toT does not mean that Indians will be given training and expertise. It only means that Indians will be given the blueprint of the particular item to sponfeed Indians about the exact process used in making that particular item. That is full ToT. Know-why is upto India to learn. No one on earth can teach know-why to anyone and everyone. To udnerstand things, one must have some amount of intelligence and interest Russian just gave the technology for AL31FP and that is it. Russians did not teach Indians about any know-why.

 

[mayfair]

And that's why Tejas and Kaveri programmes are so important.

All the ToT in the world will never substitute for learning from the bottom-up.

 

[indus]

Meanwhile Deputy IAF chief is flying Rafale in France. :biggrin2:

 

[BON PLAN]

Russian stuff looks great on paper but doesn't deliver as hoped for. Case in point, all our hardware. Western stuff delivers exactly as specified. French stuff is a mid point between the two.

??? France is not in the west world?

Dassault, specially, always made things on time, on budget, on specifications. I really don't understand why you say we are between russia and the west.... except in term of geography.

 

[Haldiram]

top IAF officers agree that quality would have been compromised had the HAL been the Indian partner of the French manufacturer.

It's the IAF that singularly killed India's first successful supersonic aircraft HAL Marut, with their incessant whining and lobbying. It's the same lobby trying to kill the Tejas project now.

IAF's words are not to be taken as technical advice. The advice is biased with vested interests.

 

[BON PLAN]

I would halfway agree with you that Russian stuff looks good on paper, Now your statement that it does not deliver. During the war with ISIS in Iraq and Syria, The Americans and the French were bombing the ISIS day in and day out for almost a year. The French were using their Mirage 2000 and Rafale with resounding success and yet the ISIS was getting stronger and getting more territory. and this is when the french and the American planes were conducting strikes as and when they pleased. The French hurt by the Paris attacks had vowed to destroy ISIS. So they had a good reason, and yet ISIS was getting more area under their control. Enter Russia with the "antique" Su-24, Tu-20 Badgers, Tu-144 Backfire which flew from Russia to conduct missions and back (just to show their capability) The Russians in just 6 months were able to change the tide of War, Almost destroying ISIS in the "Levant"
So why were the French and Americans not effective with their superior intelligence and superior firepower?
So having the best weapon does not make you superior, but having better plan of operations to destroy your enemy is whats important. You see, it works. The russian were not conducting "token" operations like the French. but they were hitting where it hurts most. So there you are...French stuff is good, but many times... just falls short

1) I really don't see ISIS growing. Since 2016 they are reducing their territory.
2) The west air forces have strict rules to open fire. The russian ones far less... They don't care about civilians casualties.
3) West forces only use air force (to avoid ground losses). You never win a war only with air force (but without you can't also).
So it's not a question of intelligence, of firepower or stuff falling short (your legendary french bashing).

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

It's the IAF that singularly killed India's first successful supersonic aircraft HAL Marut, with their incessant whining and lobbying. It's the same lobby trying to kill the Tejas project now.

IAF's words are not to be taken as technical advice. The advice is biased with vested interests.

MiG21 was far better than Marut. So, no point complaining that Marut was replaced. India did get full ToT from USSR for MiG21 Bison. It was Indian govt that did not fund further indigenous development of planes ad engines

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The west air forces have strict rules to open fire. The russian ones far less... They don't care about civilians casualties.

West have a tendency to select their terrorists and calling them freedom fighters or civilians. Firing at hospital shows that west will not hesitate firing on actual civilians but only mind attacking their special civilians