Know Your 'Rafale'

[vampyrbladez]

Su-57, looks great on paper, excellent 5th Gen engine.
Su-35 super maneuverable, out maneuvers and out performs Rafales.
What else do we need?
And yes French plane is the point between the two, very average I mean

SU 30MKI -> Upgrade = SU 35BM+

Mirage 2000 -> Medium Weight strike role -> Replacement = Rafale

 

[Kchontha]

My final words to Rafale's lovers (especially @Bon Plans) is that its numbers will be capped at 36 and a few of them might be added in the future but not at the cost of AF tejas mk2/MCA or amca. Indian navy is also more likely to opted for LM product since some commonality is shared with indian fighters. MCA is the new name for tejas MK 2. It will be gripen Ng class. I have nothing against rafale it's a nice and beutiful fourth gen aircraft but very expensive. Converting the rafale m compatible to Vicki or Iac would be costly. So instead of laying all the eggs on french/DA basket India is witty enough to invest on indigenous efforts.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

BTW, Folding wings are required by Indian navy because the space on carrier is limited and we would like to have more planes on carrier.

MCA will have same wingspan of 8.2m as LCA but longer wings. So, there will not be any need for folding wings. MiG29K needs folding as it has 12m wide wingspan. Rafale has 10.8m wingspan. So, folding small tip will be harder. In addition, since it is delta wing, folding will weaken wings. So, Rafale is unlikely to be able to fold its wings

Russian stuff looks great on paper but doesn't deliver as hoped for. Case in point, all our hardware. Western stuff delivers exactly as specified. French stuff is a mid point between the two.

What exactly is the problem with Russian stuff? Russia gives its stuff for evaluation and India chooses it.

Look at the most effective planes which carry out strike, thats not Rafale or F/A-18 that is MQ-9 Reaper,,
Unmanned, and able to carry out strike from longer distance.. It does not need to divebomb to hit the target.
Most of the time the target does not even know the plane is there

MQ9 reaper is a drone wich can be shot down by AAA or stinger missile. It does not maneuver or have advanced targeting systems.

There are still dive bombers today. We call them cruise missiles. B 52 is also good only for CAS in uncontested environment.

Lol! Cruise missiles are not simple thing like stuffing some chemical in steel case. We need complex things like turbofan engines. They are not easy to make like bombs.

SU 30MKI -> Upgrade = SU 35BM+

Mirage 2000 -> Medium Weight strike role -> Replacement = Rafale

Su35 is a small upgrade to Su30. There is vast difference between Mirage 2000 and Rafale. It is more or less like MiG29 to Su30. Moreover, when Mirage 2000 was bought, India did not make Su30. Why should India buy rafale when India makes Su30?Is there some magical text that says that every Mirage 2000 retired must be replaced with rafale to give India the power of superman?

EF 2000 is heavier than Rafale and thus TWR is comparable. The higher TWR in the case of Rafale compared to most 4.5 gen fighters gives it supercruise ability.

It makes no sense to say that just 10% increase in empty weight will nullify the effect of 20% thrust increase. Typhoon also has higher max speed at 2Mach but rafale has 1.8Mach. This shows that Rafale is inferior. Same will apply for supercruise

 

[Sancho]

Those are your opinions.

Nope, that's IAFs opinion too, since there are plenty of IAF Air Marshals on record, that confirmed IAF needs more MMRCAs and that 36 Rafales are not enough, even to make that deal useful and cost-effective.

because some bleeding babu argued that Mirage 2000-5 was a different plane from Mirage 2000!!! and hence a follow up order was not possible.

Nonsense, the then NDA government didn't wanted to do, what the PM has done now, make a single vendor deal. That's why the MRCA tender was created later, by the following UPA government.

IAF was at an an disadvantage when after the shortlisting in January 2012, the government of the day failed to sign a agreement with the preferred bidder by 2014!! For a full two years.

Again nonsense, because after 2012 it was on Dassault to comply to the terms of the tender. It took them till 2014 to comply to ToT requirements alone and that was approved by DM Jaitley back then. Both UPA and NDA governments could not sign MMRCA, because of non compliance of Dassault!

Don't just make stuff up

 

[Sancho]

for my friend @Sancho

HAL 'did not have required capability to produce Rafale': Defence Minister Sitharaman

Read that, shameful display of party politics of a spokes person, rather than a defence minister and widely acknowledged as a lie if you have read the reactions to it.

 

[Sancho]

Nirmala Sitharaman blames HAL capability, A.K. Antony for UPA’s Rafale deal failure

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...upas-rafale-deal-collapse/article24942902.ece

The more she talks, the more she discredits the position of a defence minister.

Facts
1. NDA government cancelled MMRCA
2. NDA government made Rafale deal without production line
3. NDA government issued new MMRCA tenders under the SPM, that takes out HAL as the mandatory lead integrator


One a side note, it's hilarious to see you (Rafale fanboy), fighting LCA fanboys now. :biggrin2:

 

[BON PLAN]

Lol! If Rafale's airframe shaping is not fourth gen than it is either a third or sixth gen stealth shaping with its protruding refuelling probe, protruding antenna and framed canopy. Just claiming doesn't translate into reality.
With regard to meteor missile and for your kind information it was the swede who integrated it successfully for the first time. Rafale was initially for mica. In that case you have a lot to explain......!

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F35 doesn't have a framed canopy?
A refueling probe can't be shaped so as to reflect waves in a not sensible space area? (as the tail of VLO planes... ).

I perfectly know that Gripen is the first equipped with Meteor. It was chosen as the test bed.
France air force don't think it's a so cruxial capacity (High range BVR), but think it is usefull to have it in case of, and Dassault want it for marketing reason (not to let the other eurocanard with this special and unique feature). It's why France only ordered a small batch of Meteor.

But : Gripen has a small nose aand AESA, so it can't use Meteor at the same range than others (except to shoot a high RCS liner !). Rafale F3R job is finished, the deployment in the french force of that standart has begun in july, and the first Meteor are to be delivered before the end of 2018.

 

[BON PLAN]

Seems you dont really understand the post you reply to do you?
I was talking about F/A-18 and Tejas, Why do you have to make it Rafale centric, haha well thats how Rafale fan boys do.

Tejas has LERX and that means two less surfaces that can reflect back, With Canards there is advantage of Aerodynamics but disadvantage for VLO optimisaion.

So the point is that F/A-18 should not be difficult to make ski jump take off.

BTW, Folding wings are required by Indian navy because the space on carrier is limited and we would like to have more planes on carrier.

WE ARE SOME TO BE, WITH VERY GOOD REASONS, RAFALE FAN.

YOU ARE (WITH SOME OTHERS), WITH NO VALID REASON, RAFALE HATERS.

OK.... But your arguments are always poor or inexistant. Bashing....

 

[BON PLAN]

MK2 will be inducted from 2026 with FOC in 2025.

You forget to add the indian time corrective.
2025 will become 2032....

 

[Sancho]

You are 'Fake News'

Nobody begged for Safran help on Kaveri, if anything the begging occurred on the French side once the first MRCA process was cancelled

Apart of the MRCA relation true. Snecma wanted to Co develop the Kaveri engine, to participate in the engine tender of LCA MK2, because the standard M88 engine if the Rafale did not meet the requirements.

 

[BON PLAN]

So the point is that F/A-18 should not be difficult to make ski jump take off.

BTW, Folding wings are required by Indian navy because the space on carrier is limited and we would like to have more planes on carrier.

The point is that Rafale M should not be difficult to make ski jump. If Tejas can, why Rafale M, studied for carrier operations can't ?

And what about the folding nose of the SH18 ? more than 13.6 m lengh.... remember me the size of the indian elevator?

 

[Sancho]

I can say the same for F-18 and it is even more mature than the Rafale.

Hehe, whenever you hear people use maturity, or no accidents as arguments for fighters, it's only a signal that they are out of credible arguments.

 

[BON PLAN]

Su-57, looks great on paper, excellent 5th Gen engine.
Su-35 super maneuverable, out maneuvers and out performs Rafales.
What else do we need?
And yes French plane is the point between the two, very average I mean

LOL.
Su57 don't have its ultimate engine. How could you say it is excellent ? = fake news.
SU35 out maneuvers and outperform Rafale? What is the last training between the two? NO ONE = fake news.

You are, since so many years, the king of the fake news. And one of the king of the french haters.

Why? as explain before : a bad experience with a french lover? See your mother Bro.

 

[BON PLAN]

My final words to Rafale's lovers (especially @Bon Plans) is that its numbers will be capped at 36 and a few of them might be added in the future but not at the cost of AF tejas mk2/MCA or amca. Indian navy is also more likely to opted for LM product since some commonality is shared with indian fighters. MCA is the new name for tejas MK 2. It will be gripen Ng class. I have nothing against rafale it's a nice and beutiful fourth gen aircraft but very expensive. Converting the rafale m compatible to Vicki or Iac would be costly. So instead of laying all the eggs on french/DA basket India is witty enough to invest on indigenous efforts.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

he he he....

It will not be the case. In the ultimate fold of your small brain you are convinced of that !

Final number will be between 72 and 300. My bet : near 180. MARK MY WORDS !

 

[BON PLAN]

The more she talks, the more she discredits the position of a defence minister.

Facts
1. NDA government cancelled MMRCA
2. NDA government made Rafale deal without production line
3. NDA government issued new MMRCA tenders under the SPM, that takes out HAL as the mandatory lead integrator


One a side note, it's hilarious to see you (Rafale fanboy), fighting LCA fanboys now. :biggrin2:

I like Tejas. It's nearly a finished product. A nice try by India to prepare the future.

LCA, MCA... are paper projects, so I only wake up those who are dreaming.

 

[BON PLAN]

No more time to day to answer.
@Sancho , some news to morrow....

 

[Sancho]

Folding wings/ removable fins.... It's probably not the real problem : Just look at the SH18 lenght....18.3m.... The folding wing is one thing, but there is no folding nose.

The usual lack of understanding. No matter if on the deck, or in the hangar, the fighters are parked next to each other. That means without folding wings, the wingspan of the Rafale increases the required parking space by far => less numbers of fighters.

The length of the fighters on the other hand can be handled, by positioning the fighters in an angled way, or with the nose outside of the deck, which IN has tested for the Mig 29Ks too. Only in the hangar length is an issue, which however also can be handled by inverted positioning like US and even French navy has shown too.

The wingtips solution is a desperate attempt to make Rafale be able to fit on the Vikramadithya lift, which however is neither practical, nor helps the parking problems.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

he he he....

It will not be the case. In the ultimate fold of your small brain you are convinced of that !

Final number will be between 72 and 300. My bet : near 180. MARK MY WORDS !

Only if France gives significant ToT for its manufacturing in India similar to Su30. I am not sure if France will ever budge and agree to part with important technology like M88 engine, like Russia gave away Al31F

 

[Sancho]

No more time to day to answer.
@Sancho , some news to morrow....

No problem, not that anything you say had any importance. :biggrin2:

As I told you before, it would be great if you weren't that biased and we could talk about Rafale in a proper manner, because till F3R it was a great fighter and still is a beauty.

 

[vampyrbladez]

What exactly is the problem with Russian stuff? Russia gives its stuff for evaluation and India chooses it.

Russians make majority of money through 'after sales' costs. They make India buy titanium blocks to make screws for Su 30 MKI!

Lol! Cruise missiles are not simple thing like stuffing some chemical in steel case. We need complex things like turbofan engines. They are not easy to make like bombs.

Cruise missiles are so called because of their ability to initiate terminal flight like an aircraft and their large no. of control surfaces. An S maneuver or pop up attack is engaged at the nth moment. Kind of like a Stuka did without -g recovery system.

Su35 is a small upgrade to Su30. There is vast difference between Mirage 2000 and Rafale. It is more or less like MiG29 to Su30. Moreover, when Mirage 2000 was bought, India did not make Su30. Why should India buy rafale when India makes Su30?Is there some magical text that says that every Mirage 2000 retired must be replaced with rafale to give India the power of superman?

'Small' upgrades don't have their entire engine, radar, avionics, RAM coating changed.

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2018/08/super-su-30mki-has-taken-shape.html

Original intent for MMRCA was to buy 126 Mirage 2000H and now it is 36 Rafale + 110 Rafale.

It makes no sense to say that just 10% increase in empty weight will nullify the effect of 20% thrust increase. Typhoon also has higher max speed at 2Mach but rafale has 1.8Mach. This shows that Rafale is inferior. Same will apply for supercruise

____________________________________________________________

EF Typhoon
Weights
Empty: 24,250
Fuel (50%): 5,510lbs

Weapons: 2,267lbs
4 x Meteor A-A missiles 1628 lbs
2 x IRIS-T A-A missiles 384lbs
150 rounds: (255 lbs [2lbs per round])

combat Weight: 32,027lbs

Thrust:
Dry: 26,980
AB: 40,460

T/W ratio:
Dry: 0.84
AB: 1.26

Wing Loading: 58.13/sq ft
_____________________________________________________________
Rafale
Weights
Empty: 21,000
Fuel: 5,180 lbs (50%)

Weapons: 2,265lbs
4 x Meteor A-A missiles 1628 lbs
2 x Magic A-A missiles 387lbs
125 rounds: (dont know the weight, estimate 250 lbs [2lbs per round])

combat Weight:28,445

Thrust:
Dry: 22,500
AB: 34,000

T/W ratio:
Dry: 0.79
AB: 1.20

Wing Loading: 57.81/sq ft
___________________________________________________________