Know Your 'Rafale'

[dude00720]

The deal includes :
Production of components (and probably next an assembly line) for Falcon jets. If a subsequent new order of Rafale is inked, this factory will be the assembly line.
A probable access to the nuclear simulation Megajoule.
The Safran help to revial Kaveri.
Maybe a help on some tactical missile technology (I don't know the exact details).
Maybe a help for the design (or to optimise the design) of some components for nuclear subs.

It is understandable that you might hate Tejas. We will let you have that. But, While correct that Rafale is better than Tejas (MCA vs LCA) , even if Tejas is 3++(your words, not mine), Rafale aint 5. (Not complete stealth).

Thankfully, you mentioned the Safran Deal. FYI Safran is for Kaveri 10, Kaveri 9 is a seperate branch now.

About Qatar etc. Cool..I wish the French earn a lot of money.
No problems there. But, practically, the price is too much for anyone.
The numbers will never compare with a Full fledged Indian Order.
Anyhow, Russia offered Su-35 yesterday.(Better stealth than Rafale anyday). Even F-35 has been hinted/dangled, althought for that to materialise is 1 in a Million shot).
Key is, do we want to move to an All-weather relationship like Pak-China or, do we criticise each other?
Surely the French are more gracious than this.

I do have 1 question, though, There is some talk on India specific parts in Rafale. Is the same being given to Qatar? AFAIK, that is not allowed due to the 2008 confidentiality agreement.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Then why did they accept the help of Safran, they should have just enrolled you and you would magically ended their 25-year drought. I did not say that they ended the program, I said they hit a brick wall and they needed help, which is where Safran stepped in. The engine was overweight and produced insufficient thrust, it is a fact and any level headed person will tell you that.

UPA refused to fund it ad that was the brick wall. There was no help from Safran. Macron himself confirmed that France did not help in Kaveri.

As far as Arihant is concerned, the bloody project was built under the guise of Advanced Technology vehicle. Here is what Admiral Nirmal Verma , CNS said about INS Arihant:
Though he did not elaborate, Admiral Verma did say that the
the "tremendous amount of capability'' gained in the ATV
would not be allowed to wither away.
The over 6,000-tonne INS Arihant will be more of a technology demonstrator
for the subsequent follow-on nuclear submarines to follow.

Being a TD does not mean that it is non-operational. With regards to collaboration, what we have achieved with INS Arihant is cool but still not at par with N-subs of other countries when it comes to critical technologies and armament. Fuel change in a submarine reactor, a navy vet associated with the project has said that it is a protracted and cumbersome process requiring the hull of the submarine to be cut open. The submarine arm of the Navy had previously expressed its reservations over the long “turnaround time” and frequent “fuel change cycles” of the Arihant class of submarines. Source : https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ins-arihant-may-be-of-limited-utility/article6709623.ece

What kind or useless article are you posting? Do you think the reactor has only 1 month of fuel? Do you have basic commonsense?

“The effective fuel inventory of the submarine reactor is insufficient for longer duration deployment of the vessel far away from Indian shores, as it will necessitate frequent fuel changes that are time-consuming,” said a Navy veteran, who was previously associated with the project.

The reactor went critical in 2013 and it sis still running without any refueling till date. Do you think it takes 5-10 years to patrol large distance, even to USA (half way around the world)? Is such an argument even meaningful?

India is not retarded to have a reactor which runs out in 10 years. In every nuclear submarine, the hull has to be cut to get the reactor for refueling. This is common sense.

Also, Arihant was built with considerable help from India and it is acknowledged by everyone. Don't think that we achieved it on our own, we should not act conceited.

The considerable help was consultancy. India had made a prototype reactor in 2003 itself and the submarine was made after that. Unless you know what help was received, don't act like a fool by using words like "considerable". Be specific

 

[Jackd]

It is understandable that you might hate Tejas. We will let you have that. But, While correct that Rafale is better than Tejas (MCA vs LCA) , even if Tejas is 3++(your words, not mine), Rafale aint 5. (Not complete stealth).

Thankfully, you mentioned the Safran Deal. FYI Safran is for Kaveri 10, Kaveri 9 is a seperate branch now.

About Qatar etc. Cool..I wish the French earn a lot of money.
No problems there. But, practically, the price is too much for anyone.
The numbers will never compare with a Full fledged Indian Order.
Anyhow, Russia offered Su-35 yesterday.(Better stealth than Rafale anyday). Even F-35 has been hinted/dangled, althought for that to materialise is 1 in a Million shot).
Key is, do we want to move to an All-weather relationship like Pak-China or, do we criticise each other?
Surely the French are more gracious than this.

I do have 1 question, though, There is some talk on India specific parts in Rafale. Is the same being given to Qatar? AFAIK, that is not allowed due to the 2008 confidentiality agreement.

The problem with Dassault was their marketing and the backing from France which was lacking when they first started to display their Rafales. The Egyptian as well the Indian deal has been a watershed moment for Dassault as they have started to get more orders and they have strengthened their weaknesses as well ( I hope they have). They have also been asked to incorporate export potential when it comes to further development of the Rafale, this will help them to better themselves as an exporter.

As far the Tejas part is concerned, it a 4th gen plane at least if not a 4.5gen one.

 

[dude00720]

The problem with Dassault was their marketing and the backing from France which was lacking when they first started to display their Rafales. The Egyptian as well the Indian deal has been a watershed moment for Dassault as they have started to get more orders and they have strengthened their weaknesses as well ( I hope they have). They have also been asked to incorporate export potential when it comes to further development of the Rafale, this will help them to better themselves as an exporter.

As far the Tejas part is concerned, it a 4th gen plane at least if not a 4.5gen one.

I agree Tejas is 4th Gen. Just for Bon Plan's reference I used his 3++ to show that, even at those criteria, Rafale is not so big as made out. Anyhow, given time we will reach there.

I will never know if UPA deliberately sabotaged Kaveri by less funds or, we were not good enough. Once, we cross the 100KN Mark. 125KN will happen. Then, AMCA becomes a matter of time.

 

[Jackd]

UPA refused to fund it ad that was the brick wall. There was no help from Safran. Macron himself confirmed that France did not help in Kaveri.

What kind or useless article are you posting? Do you think the reactor has only 1 month of fuel? Do you have basic commonsense?



The reactor went critical in 2013 and it sis still running without any refueling till date. Do you think it takes 5-10 years to patrol large distance, even to USA (half way around the world)? Is such an argument even meaningful?

India is not retarded to have a reactor which runs out in 10 years. In every nuclear submarine, the hull has to be cut to get the reactor for refueling. This is common sense.

The considerable help was consultancy. India had made a prototype reactor in 2003 itself and the submarine was made after that. Unless you know what help was received, don't act like a fool by using words like "considerable". Be specific

Then who helped the Kaveri engine, maybe it was you who did it.

WIth regards to the fuel part, I only posted the part which I found relevant and if you get off your high horse you will realize that I did not mention the part that it requires fuel change in a month.
The Arihant is based on Russian double hull design with a sealed nuclear reactor section. Except for the latest French nuclear submarines that have a hatch above the reactor for quicker refuelling, no other country with nuclear submarines have such a system. Source: https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ins-arihant-accident/articleshow/62468708.cms
I a-m j-u-s-t q-u-o-t-i-n-g t-h-e r-e-l-e-v-a-n-t p-o-r-t-i-o-n-s, see I spelled it out for you so you don't have any further difficulty.

You have not provided anything specific to counter my submission, so please - Pot calling the Kettle black, give me a break and provide me with something substantial which states that Russia had a fleeting role in the sub development. Also, don't quote from the articles of Mr. Advaidhya Tiwari, he is delusional.

 

[Armand2REP]

Well current order book is for 272, there are 40 more being ordered, IAF continues to buy the MKI. Better yet the new batch of 40 will be Brahmos capable.

It is capped at 272 but do you know why? The MKI costs 3X as much to maintain as the Rafale, that is why.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

It is capped at 272 but do you know why? The MKI costs 3X as much to maintain as the Rafale, that is why.

What is the cost here? Explain? If India can make engines and its spare parts, India has overhauling ability etc, what is cost? How is giving away foreign exchange better than getting Indian made plane? By the way, Su30 is about to get another 40 orders. So, there is no absolute capping per se. Just a matter of requirements.

The only major cost of Su30 is fuel expense (which is imported) as Su30 is fuel guzzler.

 

[Armand2REP]

What is the cost here? Explain? If India can make engines and its spare parts, India has overhauling ability etc, what is cost? How is giving away foreign exchange better than getting Indian made plane? By the way, Su30 is about to get another 40 orders. So, there is no absolute capping per se. Just a matter of requirements.

The only major cost of Su30 is fuel expense (which is imported) as Su30 is fuel guzzler.

India does not make engines and spare parts, those are contracts that must be negotiated at the whim of Russian suppliers which have proven to be unreliable.

"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like engines, radars, missiles, avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force air
vice-marshal.

Russia has failed to provide the full ToT they promised.

A senior HAL executive said the company has demanded Russian OEMs provide full support for the supply of spares, share transfer of technology at the component level and improve serviceability of the Su-30MKI fleet. In addition, the company said Russian OEMs must ensure full transfer to technology to Indian partners to manage obsolescence of the fleet.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...es-problems-despite-russian-spare-parts-deal/

MKI has been hovering around 50% availability for 24hr notice for several years. The cost of maintaining it is 3X more expensive..

On the claims by the vendors that the Sukhoi-30s cost almost one-third of the French Rafale 36 of which would be joining the force in 2019, sources said the Russian plane costs three times more for maintenance than its existing western origin plane taking into account the man hours required for keeping the plane serviceable.

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-toda...g-more-sukhoi-fighter-jets-1258923-2018-06-13

 

[BON PLAN]

This is just certification ad audit. Not impressive.

maybe. But before Kaveri was 100% stall. Sometime a very tiny help has a major effect.

 

[BON PLAN]

India already has advanced and fully indigenous technology and needs nothing more.


In addition, meteor, MICA etc are also advanced technology which can be studied by India to make its own ones

So, India need or don't need help on tactical missile ? I've heard you need it.

 

[BON PLAN]

You forgot India was laughed at when it launched SLV but now ISRO reached Mars, launched 2 British satellites in its first ever full commercial launch and by 2020 India will have its own Ariane class HLV rockets and will give Ariane a run for money.

Congrats.
And don't forget to thanks the french that gave the Viking engine technology...

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

maybe. But before Kaveri was 100% stall. Sometime a very tiny help has a major effect.

The stall was because of previous govt mishandling things, not because of any other reason

So, India need or don't need help on tactical missile ? I've heard you need it.

India does not need help n tactical missile. India has far more advanced tactical missiles which can even maneuver in quasi ballistic path.

 

[BON PLAN]

It is understandable that you might hate Tejas. We will let you have that. But, While correct that Rafale is better than Tejas (MCA vs LCA) , even if Tejas is 3++(your words, not mine), Rafale aint 5. (Not complete stealth).

Thankfully, you mentioned the Safran Deal. FYI Safran is for Kaveri 10, Kaveri 9 is a seperate branch now.

About Qatar etc. Cool..I wish the French earn a lot of money.
No problems there. But, practically, the price is too much for anyone.
The numbers will never compare with a Full fledged Indian Order.
Anyhow, Russia offered Su-35 yesterday.(Better stealth than Rafale anyday). Even F-35 has been hinted/dangled, althought for that to materialise is 1 in a Million shot).
Key is, do we want to move to an All-weather relationship like Pak-China or, do we criticise each other?
Surely the French are more gracious than this.

I do have 1 question, though, There is some talk on India specific parts in Rafale. Is the same being given to Qatar? AFAIK, that is not allowed due to the 2008 confidentiality agreement.

The sole real 5th gen is F22.

LM said itself that a 5th gen must have : stealth/super cruise/high agility (on par with F16)/sensor fusion.
And LM add : affordable in the F35 case (but it was in 2001... prehistoric date)

Rafale is short on VLO (only LO).
F35 is short on agility and supercruise. Even sensor fusion is not clear so far, but it will be solved.

What is the nearer of a 5th gen according to the LM definition ????

****
Kaveri 9, 10. Why not 15? Truth is that all was stalling until Safran Help. Just facts.

****
SU35 better stealth than Rafale? Of course you have a source.

 

[BON PLAN]

What is the cost here? Explain? If India can make engines and its spare parts, India has overhauling ability etc, what is cost? How is giving away foreign exchange better than getting Indian made plane? By the way, Su30 is about to get another 40 orders. So, there is no absolute capping per se. Just a matter of requirements.

The only major cost of Su30 is fuel expense (which is imported) as Su30 is fuel guzzler.

Officially India don't make 100% !

and after more than 200 ex, it's a pity.

 

[BON PLAN]

The stall was because of previous govt mishandling things, not because of any other reason

always the fault of another person...
sorry, but the result is there. Technically, after 25 years, it don't fly properly.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

always the fault of another person...
sorry, but the result is there. Technically, after 25 years, it don't fly properly.

But once it flies, it will be enough for all needs. By the way, the current design of turbofan was in 2006. Earlier, the requirement was for 78kN engine, similar to F404 and that has been reached. So, again wrong information.

 

[Kchontha]

LOL !

DA is a private company. They earned a lot of money. They are "only" 14000 peoples (compare with LM for exemple) but are able to develop and produce the actual best fighter of the moment. SO PLEASE, DON'T SAY THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO BUSINESS.

other option? OK. Remember me what was the fighter ordered at the end?

Gen 4 ? 4+ ? 4++ ? ... F35 isn't a 5th gen according to the LM proper standarts, so.... only marketing arguments.

I prefer the way DA use to make business than the way HAL use to produce Tejas, or the modernisation phase of M2000....

Just open the eyes.

You don't know that by not materialising mmrca1 DA/French has lost a wonderful military aviation business opportunities with an economically emerging nation like India, mmrca1 couldn't be materialised more because of French/DA bad bussinesmanship rather than India's. Now you have to do similar business obligations with a reduce quantity of product numbering 36 only. Moreover a few of your product may be added provided if you obliged to our demands. That is the sign of bad businessmanship your part not of the customer.
As far as other options are concerns, it seems like you have forgotten other contenders of mmrca1, more numbers of the mki, tejas mk2/MCA, amca, f16 etc or 'other options' phrase could be the dummy to lure the OEMs to fall in the lines. Lol!

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Immanuel]

It is capped at 272 but do you know why? The MKI costs 3X as much to maintain as the Rafale, that is why.

It's not capped at 272, 40 more will come, signing will be done by end of year. MKI costing 3 times more to maintain than Rafale is fake news. It's at best the same or max 10-20% more. However the does need more man hours of maintenance per flight hr.

 

[Immanuel]

Officially India don't make 100% !

and after more than 200 ex, it's a pity.

So are you telling India will ever make Rafale 100% in India? Give me a break

 

[Immanuel]

India does not make engines and spare parts, those are contracts that must be negotiated at the whim of Russian suppliers which have proven to be unreliable.

"The [Su-30MKI] fleet is prohibitively expensive equipment and faces problems due to high, premature failure rate of subsystems like engines, radars, missiles, avionics, etc.," said Vinod Kumar Narang, a retired Indian Air Force air
vice-marshal.

Russia has failed to provide the full ToT they promised.

A senior HAL executive said the company has demanded Russian OEMs provide full support for the supply of spares, share transfer of technology at the component level and improve serviceability of the Su-30MKI fleet. In addition, the company said Russian OEMs must ensure full transfer to technology to Indian partners to manage obsolescence of the fleet.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...es-problems-despite-russian-spare-parts-deal/

MKI has been hovering around 50% availability for 24hr notice for several years. The cost of maintaining it is 3X more expensive..

On the claims by the vendors that the Sukhoi-30s cost almost one-third of the French Rafale 36 of which would be joining the force in 2019, sources said the Russian plane costs three times more for maintenance than its existing western origin plane taking into account the man hours required for keeping the plane serviceable.

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/story/iaf-not-keen-on-getting-more-sukhoi-fighter-jets-1258923-2018-06-13

There is a reason why we call you 'fake news'

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18...To_60_per_cent__Manohar_Parrikar#.W6DfDE0Uncs

MKI's availability had already crossed 60% in Jan 2017. By now it should be holding steady at 75%.