Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

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[BON PLAN]

Which is the sad part, although it could already be inducted in IAF, but thx to Dassault IAF suffers.

Thanks to HAL that seem just able to produce a Rafale with 2.7 time of man hours than Dassault....

Thanks to HAL, whose quality standard are so poor, a worldwide known fact.

 

[BON PLAN]

Wrong as well, there is no link between MMRCA and the engine tender of LCA MK2.
And there is a link between Rafale offsets for MMRCA or the 36 Rafale.

Reviving Kaveri was only issued, after Safran asked DRDO, where to put offsets in. The same had been the case, if Dassault had not blocked the MMRCA and the deal could had been finalised.

We say exactly the same. First time it occurs

 

[Sancho]

We say exactly the same. First time it occurs

Not really, since you tried to create a link between the Rafale deal and Kaveri revival, while I corrected that and drew the correct link between offsets (no matter under MMRCA or the 36 deal) and the revival.

The problem that we both don't agree more often, is the fact that you don't look at Rafale or the Indian tenders with a rational and unbiased point of view. Otherwise we could appreciate Rafale and discuss about the benefits and disadvantages of the fighter more often. :biggrin2:

 

[Sancho]

Thanks to HAL that seem just able to produce a Rafale with 2.7 time of man hours than Dassault....

Thanks to HAL, whose quality standard are so poor, a worldwide known fact.

See, you can't admit that Dassaults non compliance to the RFP killed the MMRCA.
Just as you ignore that, Boeing, BAE, Kamov, or Mikoyan now prefer HAL over other Indian aviation companies, especially over Reliance!

Except HAL, there is only TATA and Mahindra, that actually are alternatives in parts of Indian aviation as sad as it is, but which also confirms how bad Dassaults choice was and why it needs to be questioned.

 

[BON PLAN]

Not really, since you tried to create a link between the Rafale deal and Kaveri revival, while I corrected that and drew the correct link between offsets (no matter under MMRCA or the 36 deal) and the revival.

The problem that we both don't agree more often, is the fact that you don't look at Rafale or the Indian tenders with a rational and unbiased point of view. Otherwise we could appreciate Rafale and discuss about the benefits and disadvantages of the fighter more often. :biggrin2:

Sorry. I made a mistake. You never seen the facts, but turn it in a strange way only understandable by you.
After all it's your problem.

There is a strong link between the Kaveri revival and the Rafale GtoG deal.

 

[BON PLAN]

See, you can't admit that Dassaults non compliance to the RFP killed the MMRCA.
Just as you ignore that, Boeing, BAE, Kamov, or Mikoyan now prefer HAL over other Indian aviation companies, especially over Reliance!

Except HAL, there is only TATA and Mahindra, that actually are alternatives in parts of Indian aviation as sad as it is, but which also confirms how bad Dassaults choice was and why it needs to be questioned.

No, I can't admit it, because it was never writen in the RFP that the winner has to give unconditionnal warranty to a product made by HAL.
All the other can't no more deal with Reliance, because Reliance is in touch with Dassault now. So they desesperatly try the old horse : HAL...

Dassault has a wide cooperation experience, with italy (Falcon), germany (alpha jet, atlantic), GB (Jaguar), Spain, Sweden, switzerland, greece (Neuron) etc... They are very aware, be sure.
The Reliance, even if you can't understand why (or can't see why) is a very good choice from Dassault point of view = It's better to learn from 0% than from 70% with a partner full of bad practices.

 

[Sancho]

You never seen the facts, but turn it in a strange way only understandable by you.

Perfect description of YOUR flawed way of arguing and you even provided a proof too =>

it was never writen in the RFP that the winner has to give unconditionnal warranty to a product made by HAL

The real fact is, that the DPP 2006, which is the base for the MMRCA RFP, clearly included Delivery Schedule and Liquidated Damages clauses =>

Report from 2013 on that issue:

So you neither know the facts, nor understand the issue (because the clauses hold the OEM accountable, for his OWN mistakes, not of the Indian manufacturer), but still claim things, that are plain wrong, simply out of bias.

And I also showed how the clauses act, if an OEM is caught making mistakes =>

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-716#post-1449193


So the fact remains - Dassault messed up the MMRCA negotiations, because they didn't wanted to be accountable, for their own mistakes!

 

[Jackd]

I think that (product guarantee) was the sticking point during the negotiations between India and Dassault. Dassault didn't wanted to take responsibility as they had visited HAL's facilities and were a bit dismayed, to put it mildly. Negotiations were dragging on for too long and no breakthrough was in sight, which led to the deal being axed.

 

[indus]

Only this was remaining....

 

[Illusive]

Only this was remaining....

What kind of activism is this? Only in India is it allowed to cut the hands of those who are responsible for the nation's security.

I hope SC throws that PIL in a thrash can.

 

[Jackd]

SC can't do anything with respect to this deal. If it does, then it will be a case of judicial overreach or adventurism, which I think SC will not want to. This plea will most likely be junked.

 

[bhramos]

‘Controversy for all the wrong reasons’: The Indian Air Force leadership spoke out on the Rafale deal today. Quick round-up of what they said.

 

[bhramos]

Amidst conspicuous radio silence from Gwalior, here's the only official picture from down there -- French Ambassador Alexandre Ziegler meeting with crews of the 3 Rafales & other @Armee_de_lair assets.

 

[stew98]

These congi dolt have always played with national security be it in government or outside. But I think this could be blessing in disguise for indigenous platforms. All babus whether in MOD or armed forces will now know, no big ticket deals can go through without a hitch they will be forced to work with and improve indigenous platforms.

What kind of activism is this? Only in India is it allowed to cut the hands of those who are responsible for the nation's security.

I hope SC throws that PIL in a thrash can.

 

[BON PLAN]

Perfect description of YOUR flawed way of arguing and you even provided a proof too =>



The real fact is, that the DPP 2006, which is the base for the MMRCA RFP, clearly included Delivery Schedule and Liquidated Damages clauses =>

Report from 2013 on that issue:

So you neither know the facts, nor understand the issue (because the clauses hold the OEM accountable, for his OWN mistakes, not of the Indian manufacturer), but still claim things, that are plain wrong, simply out of bias.

And I also showed how the clauses act, if an OEM is caught making mistakes =>

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-716#post-1449193


So the fact remains - Dassault messed up the MMRCA negotiations, because they didn't wanted to be accountable, for their own mistakes!

You're wrong.
a simple answer :
Delivery schedule is not assuming quality (in a blind situation).

Dassault always do things in time, on budget, on quality. But no serious industrial will accept to endorse the quality of a third party, without the right to have a look in.
AND THIS POINT WAS NOT IN THE RFP !

And if Dassault was so wrong, why inking a deal after that for 36? Eurofighter was there....

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale jets will give India unprecedented combat capabilitie .

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[BON PLAN]

Indian Air Force Breaks Silence On Rafale Controversy; Vice Chief Of IAF Says Critics 'don't Have Information' And 'Rafale Is A Beautiful Aircraft'

https://www.republicworld.com/india...mation-and-rafale-is-a-beautiful-aircraft?v=1

 

[BON PLAN]

The Indian Rafale comes with about 15 modifications which even the French Air Force doesn't have. The biggest strength of the aircraft is that it can be used for delivery of strategic weapons too. Also, it comes equipped with latest weapon system including the Meteor Beyond Visual Range missile. As per sources the Rafale would be able to do five missions per day as compared to three for other aircraft because of quick turnaround time. For example, the engine of the Rafale can be replaced in 30 minutes as compared to 8 hours for the Su30.


https://www.republicworld.com/india...mation-and-rafale-is-a-beautiful-aircraft?v=1

 

[BON PLAN]

for you, @Sancho

Ruffians on Rafale : It is time that the liars are shut up and shut down with the facts

https://www.opindia.com/2018/09/ruf...ars-are-shut-up-and-shut-down-with-the-facts/