Know Your 'Rafale'

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Licensed assembled in India more like, with critical components still being sourced from Soviets/Russia due to contractual/kulhaari maarna obligations.

WHich critical item is manufactured in Russia for Su30. Engine, radar, RWR, etc are made in India. These are the critical parts. Don't lie so blatantly. Have some shame.

Migs, Sukhois are foreign products whichever way you look them. Ur argument was abt India to be able to build planes on its own. These are not our planes. How they are built in India is already explained above.

They are foreign design but made in India. ToT was given to India and that is all that matters. Stop lying shamelessly everytime

Plz explain. In the path to what???. Global domination like USA has today. Well thats at least 25-30 yrs away and World would be much different by then. As of today and the coming future US/ Nato has no plans to attack India. If they have hinted so, plz share with us.

Not everything is done after giving hints. It is a fact that Arabs and Pakistan have been against India and it is a fact that USA/NATO has been in alliance with Arabs.

Next, even if NATO was not trying to attack India, if India has to have security, it should be capable of wiping out the enemy without taking much damage. So, if India has 1lakh planes and proportional other equipments, Indian safety is guaranteed

1 lakh LCA, 10,000 AMCA, 10000 su30s. From where do u pull these figures. . And in how many years do u want to manufacture them. 100 years. Why hasnt USA, Russia or any European country shown intent to make these many planes. They have both capital and technology. I remember you were the guy wanted to make thousands of nuclear bombs. By posting such numbers you kill the fun of discussion. . Bass ab aur nahi. Namaste

From where do you pull your figures? From which war or real life lmits are you considering while pulling your figures.

Having 50lakh cars manufactured every year also requires capital. But it is being done. SO, stop your blabbering. It will take only 1 year to make the number of planes I said if done like car production. What fun of discussion? There is no discussion without result. I am being very clear that result is important and anything else will not be acceptable. If you want to live like animals, then I am not interested in talking to you.

LOL.
Arjun availability problems are psychological? Kaveri problems are psychological ? Nirbay cruise missile failure are psychological?

=> Indian engineers need to learn that 9,9 is not 10.

No, the technology problems is psychologically derived. If Indians had the intent to develop and had threatened to eliminate the government which does not fund defence, then government would have had no choice but to fully cooperate with DRDO and get technology. Due to lack of interest from people in security, the government got an opportunity to sabotage

hum hum....

So 100 x F101 Voodoo are better than 100 x Eurofighter because it weigh more ? interesting !

Ask France to sell you the plans of Mirage 4, or Canada for the CF105 Arrow. They weight a lot !

Strength = Quality x Quantity X Will-Power + Leverage

Quality refers to quality of equipment. Here the technology level comes

Quantity refers to quantity of equipment and logistics. Here the quantity of planes, ammunition etc comes

WillPower refers to the strength of the fighting people to withstand any hardship and never surrender. The self respect, scientific attitude and education levels also come here

Leverage refers to the enemy's need from you. For example, India has indus water flowing to Pakistan and can be cut off. Pakistan has only Indus river system for survival and cutting off Indus will make Pakistan water-less.

Taking willpower and leverage as same for everyone, we look at Quality x Quantity to compare Mirage 4 with rafale in scale of 1-100

Quality of Mirage-4 = 15
Quality of Rafale = 90
Quality of Mirage-2000 = 50

So,

30 x Mirage-4 = 5 x Rafale = 9 x Mirage-2000

Net time, use this equation instead of taking voodoo as example.

 

[indus]

WHich critical item is manufactured in Russia for Su30. Engine, radar, RWR, etc are made in India. These are the critical parts. Don't lie so blatantly. Have some shame.


They are foreign design but made in India. ToT was given to India and that is all that matters. Stop lying shamelessly everytime

If u care to read plz click below link.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/first-sukhoi-30-overhauled-at-nashik-highlights-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html

Article dated 2014 but still holds lot of truth.

Some excerpts if u dont want to read it:-

Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components - or 73 per cent - are now being built in India.

Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI - including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia.
Read another one below.

http://idrw.org/how-russia-continues-to-hold-iron-grip-on-after-sales-support-of-su-30mki-in-india/

Next, even if NATO was not trying to attack India, if India has to have security, it should be capable of wiping out the enemy without taking much damage. So, if India has 1lakh planes and proportional other equipments, Indian safety is guaranteed

From where do you pull your figures? From which war or real life lmits are you considering while pulling your figures.

Having 50lakh cars manufactured every year also requires capital. But it is being done. SO, stop your blabbering. It will take only 1 year to make the number of planes I said if done like car production. What fun of discussion? There is no discussion without result. I am being very clear that result is important and anything else will not be acceptable. If you want to live like animals, then I am not interested in talking to you.

I didnt pull any figures. I just quoted yours. I gave a report to backup my claims. You shld also try to give data rather than posting rants.
Btw how does 1 Lakh planes guarentee India s safety. How did that number come. 50,000 wont do??? Or 75000. Plz explain.

 

[halloweene]

36 Rafale, YES.

But only the first 36 !

Because IAF will never made the same mistake than with Mirage 2000. They ordered too few, and when they were ready to ordered in mass, despite previous Dassault warnings, the line was closed.
=> Just imagine IAF now with 120 x M2000-5 !
=> Mirage 2000 was THE very nice surprise of Kargil (even in a old version). And Rafale is so many more effective. IAF will do all the necessary pressures to have a minimum of 72 planes, probably 120, and optimisticaly 200.

Tejas has yet to prove that it fit perfectly its role : replace Mig 21 as a point defense fighter.
Tejas vs rafale is like
View attachment 27532
versus

Too winners, but in two different leagues.

µPerso i prefer this french winner

Do you indian frinds recognize him (hint : 2m04, 140 Kgs)

 

[mayfair]

WHich critical item is manufactured in Russia for Su30. Engine, radar, RWR, etc are made in India. These are the critical parts. Don't lie so blatantly. Have some shame.

Thotha chana baaje ghana.

IED mubarak

Says the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, S Subrahmanyan: "More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49 per cent agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India.

Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components - or 73 per cent - are now being built in India.

Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI - including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia.

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.

And this is only the tip of the iceberg.

More to come...

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

If u care to read plz click below link.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/first-sukhoi-30-overhauled-at-nashik-highlights-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html

Article dated 2014 but still holds lot of truth.

Some excerpts if u dont want to read it:-

Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components - or 73 per cent - are now being built in India.

Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI - including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia.
Read another one below.

http://idrw.org/how-russia-continues-to-hold-iron-grip-on-after-sales-support-of-su-30mki-in-india/

I didnt pull any figures. I just quoted yours. I gave a report to backup my claims. You shld also try to give data rather than posting rants.
Btw how does 1 Lakh planes guarentee India s safety. How did that number come. 50,000 wont do??? Or 75000. Plz explain.

Thotha chana baaje ghana.

IED mubarak



And this is only the tip of the iceberg.

More to come...

Don't quote old articles. I have told several times that Al31F engine and full indigenisation started in 2014-15. So, the last phase involves almost complete indigenisation of Su30. Titanium blocks etc are considered as raw material and these are to be excluded. It does not make any sense to include titanium or other raw materials as I am speaking of "manufacturing", not mining!!

The other parts like nuts bolts etc are of low technology and are only made in Russia for royalty reasons. India can make these simple things easily. It is just about the contract, not technology unavailability.

1 lakh planes or 50000 is just a number. The point here is that the number of planes and defence equipments must be made in tens of thousand and not hundreds. The more the better. So, if India can make 1 lakh planes, why make 50000? If it is possible to make 2-3 lakhs, then definitely do it. There is no problem. If there is no requirement, we can simply keep them in storage. Better to have and not need than need and not have

 

[mayfair]

Facts and figures, facts and figures...from the "manufacturers'" mouth.

IED mubarak once again

47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys

Low tech indeed.

Care to share your facts??

I am betting NOT...

 

[indus]

1 lakh planes or 50000 is just a number. The point here is that the number of planes and defence equipments must be made in tens of thousand and not hundreds. The more the better. So, if India can make 1 lakh planes, why make 50000? If it is possible to make 2-3 lakhs, then definitely do it. There is no problem. If there is no requirement, we can simply keep them in storage. Better to have and not need than need and not have

Am not sure if u are 27 yrs old. Ur thoughts seem to be of a 7 yr old kid. Manufacture 1 lakhs. Or 2 3 lakhs also will do. Keep them in storage. Where??? In ur refridgerator. One basic thing is missing in almost all ur posts. LOGIC.

 

[BON PLAN]

Titanium blocks etc are considered as raw material and these are to be excluded. It does not make any sense to include titanium or other raw materials as I am speaking of "manufacturing", not mining!!

The other parts like nuts bolts etc are of low technology

titanium blocks raw material? I think it's mainly forged components, so far from "mining", and with a heat treatment not specially easy to master.

bolts and nuts : do india has the same quality components suppliers? It's a simple components, but highly quality sensible (rust, stress).

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Am not sure if u are 27 yrs old. Ur thoughts seem to be of a 7 yr old kid. Manufacture 1 lakhs. Or 2 3 lakhs also will do. Keep them in storage. Where??? In ur refridgerator. One basic thing is missing in almost all ur posts. LOGIC.

How many square metre of area is needed for 1 lakh planes? Let us say 200 square metres including all things like spacing, runway etc. So, 2 crore square meters will be needed. 10 lakh square kilometres is 1 square kilometer. So, 20 square kilometer land is required for storage. This is about 5000 acres of land. IIT Kharagpur itself has 1000 acre land in comparison.

First stop speaking like a retard living in the basement. In WW2, Germany alone made 1.5 lakh planes. USA made 3.5 lakh planes. USSR and UK also made 1lakh+ planes. Making 1 lakh planes is nothing new. It is just taht you are not thinking straight and have a twisted mind just like your display picture.

titanium blocks raw material? I think it's mainly forged components, so far from "mining", and with a heat treatment not specially easy to master.

bolts and nuts : do india has the same quality components suppliers? It's a simple components, but highly quality sensible (rust, stress).

India has the ability to make Tejas on its own. There is no need to question Indian ability to make Su30 parts and components. I have told this several times that India makes the most critical of the parts - engine Al31FP in HAL from raw material. Other things are quite small in comparison.

Here is link to say that HAL makes Al31FP inhouse:
https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...-50th-al31fp-engine-to-iaf/article9920705.ece

 

[Jackd]

We cannot make 1L planes in 10 years even if our life was dependent on it. The country will go bankrupt, even the USA will go bankrupt. I hope to hell that you are talking about those RC planes.

 

[indus]

How many square metre of area is needed for 1 lakh planes? Let us say 200 square metres including all things like spacing, runway etc. So, 2 crore square meters will be needed. 10 lakh square kilometres is 1 square kilometer. So, 20 square kilometer land is required for storage. This is about 5000 acres of land. IIT Kharagpur itself has 1000 acre land in comparison.

First stop speaking like a retard living in the basement. In WW2, Germany alone made 1.5 lakh planes. USA made 3.5 lakh planes. USSR and UK also made 1lakh+ planes. Making 1 lakh planes is nothing new. It is just taht you are not thinking straight and have a twisted mind just like your display picture.

I dont find any merit in discussing wth you. Neither 1.5 lakh planes could prevent Germany s fall nor 3.5 lakh planes prevent Pearl harbor. Heck US could not prevent a 9/11 type attack with those shiny F22 raptors. And u were giving guarentee of national security with 1 or 2 lakh planes. I m more interested to know how we are going to reach 42 sqdn strength which is the number stated by IAF. You can keep ur numbers to yourself. And lets not assume as to who s living in basement n who is a retard or twisted. Ciao.​

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

We cannot make 1L planes in 10 years even if our life was dependent on it. The country will go bankrupt, even the USA will go bankrupt. I hope to hell that you are talking about those RC planes.

How did you come to the conclusion? What exactly is so expensive about planes which will make country bankrupt? Can you tell me how will 80 thousand worth of raw material for 10thousand Tejas MK2 every year be too much for a country like India which makes items in thousands of crores of tons every year? If raw material is not the problem, then what is? Indian government employs over 2.5 crore government employees including states and centre government. How will small amount of additional labour bankrupt India? Give me specific details of expense for planes. The only thing I see expensive is due to lack of scaling because of which many industries which are capable of producing thousands of components are forced to produce only tens of components.

I dont find any merit in discussing wth you. Neither 1.5 lakh planes could prevent Germany s fall nor 3.5 lakh planes prevent Pearl harbor. Heck US could not prevent a 9/11 type attack with those shiny F22 raptors. And u were giving guarentee of national security with 1 or 2 lakh planes. I m more interested to know how we are going to reach 42 sqdn strength which is the number stated by IAF. You can keep ur numbers to yourself. And lets not assume as to who s living in basement n who is a retard or twisted. Ciao.​

Germany had to fight with USA+UK+USSR with 3.5lakh + 1 lakh+ 1.5lakh = 6 lakh planes. So, it lost despite having 1.5 lakh planes as the enemy had 4 times as much! Simple logic. Germany was a small country fighting on multiple fronts with countries that had population ranging 5 times as much and resources 20 times as much.

No one said that all incidents like pearl harbour can be stopped. The only thing that can be done is that after the first strike, the enemy can be destroyed to prevent the second strike. That is what happened to Japan after it attacked pearl harbour. due to 3.5 lakh planes of USA. USA fought against Japan and Germany simultaenously and still emerged victorious due to the large quantity

 

[Flame Thrower]

How did you come to the conclusion? What exactly is so expensive about planes which will make country bankrupt? Can you tell me how will 80 thousand worth of raw material for 10thousand Tejas MK2 every year be too much for a country like India which makes items in thousands of crores of tons every year? If raw material is not the problem, then what is? Indian government employs over 2.5 crore government employees including states and centre government. How will small amount of additional labour bankrupt India? Give me specific details of expense for planes. The only thing I see expensive is due to lack of scaling because of which many industries which are capable of producing thousands of components are forced to produce only tens of components.


Germany had to fight with USA+UK+USSR with 3.5lakh + 1 lakh+ 1.5lakh = 6 lakh planes. So, it lost despite having 1.5 lakh planes as the enemy had 4 times as much! Simple logic. Germany was a small country fighting on multiple fronts with countries that had population ranging 5 times as much and resources 20 times as much.

No one said that all incidents like pearl harbour can be stopped. The only thing that can be done is that after the first strike, the enemy can be destroyed to prevent the second strike. That is what happened to Japan after it attacked pearl harbour. due to 3.5 lakh planes of USA. USA fought against Japan and Germany simultaenously and still emerged victorious due to the large quantity

The 4th gen planes of today are not WW2 piston engines.

Please think rationally.

Where do you plan to get the pilots for these planes. Or the ground crew to maintain them.

WW2 axis pilots had training as low as 20 hrs (kamikazi planes). Do you even know how many years it takes to train(time or cost) a pilot!!?? It is considered economical to loose a 4th gen fighter aircraft than it's pilot. This says the time, cost and effort goes into pilot training.

Now to your lakhs of planes, do you even know how many fighters or what kind of fighters we're present in US prior to Sept 1939!?


All those lakhs of planes were built during WW2. Today's war and WW2 had changed beyond your current imagination. I think you should read before you write useless stuff.

By the way, there used to be a guy who asked for 1 lakh Tejas....are you the same guy!?

 

[BON PLAN]

India has the ability to make Tejas on its own.

Sure.
The only question is : WHEN ?

I've read that the Tejas program supervision was removed from the HAL hands. A very clever decision (and it's not a joke).

 

[BON PLAN]

Here is link to say that HAL makes Al31FP inhouse:

So what about the difficulties of Kaveri ?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The 4th gen planes of today are not WW2 piston engines.

Please think rationally.

Where do you plan to get the pilots for these planes. Or the ground crew to maintain them.

WW2 axis pilots had training as low as 20 hrs (kamikazi planes). Do you even know how many years it takes to train(time or cost) a pilot!!?? It is considered economical to loose a 4th gen fighter aircraft than it's pilot. This says the time, cost and effort goes into pilot training.

Now to your lakhs of planes, do you even know how many fighters or what kind of fighters we're present in US prior to Sept 1939!?


All those lakhs of planes were built during WW2. Today's war and WW2 had changed beyond your current imagination. I think you should read before you write useless stuff.

By the way, there used to be a guy who asked for 1 lakh Tejas....are you the same guy!?

A fighter pilot can be semi-trained in 2 months if the need arises. The fighter jets are easy to fly due to advanced FBW system which did not exist in WW2. It is true that learning things like EW, information warfare, team working etc will need more work compared to WW2. But it is incorrect to say that it is impossible

I do know that current war has changed beyond WW2 and has become more dominated by computers and information. But that only makes quantity even more important as teh enemy's ability to produce large quantity of missiles, SAMs, planes also increase.

Just recently, ISRO announced that 50-60 launches of SSLV is being planned annually. SSLV is said to weigh 120 tons. SSLV is said to cost only about 20 crore rupees. This means that the ability to make Agni-5 is clearly much higher than 50-60 a year. Agni-5 weighs 50 tons and is a proven design. So, the number of such missiles made must be quite large annually. The same can be said about Pakistan or other countries.

All this makes it clear that India will have to make large number of planes and equipment. The pilots and crew can be less trained and left to FBW and sensors to do the locking and shooting jobs of BVR or ground strike missiles. But, the quantity is definitely needed to cover attrition and losses during war.

If you think that fighting with 1000-2000 planes is enough, then even god can't save you. One must have basic common sense to understand that war also involves losses from enemy fire. No matter what quality one has, there is a limit to it and can be easily overwhelmed by enemy quantity. There is a need to have ability to tolerate losses and yet keep fighting. There is no substitute to quantity.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

So what about the difficulties of Kaveri ?

Al31F was made since 2015 only. So, Kaveri is also coming soon. India has learnt the art just 3 years back. Give some time for next engine!

Sure.
The only question is : WHEN ?

I've read that the Tejas program supervision was removed from the HAL hands. A very clever decision (and it's not a joke).

Tejas is already being rolled out. MK2 will be coming out by 2025 and work is already going on. Kaveri engine is the only thing that is left which AFAIK has been getting finalised and will be ready in 2 years

 

[Flame Thrower]

A fighter pilot can be semi-trained in 2 months if the need arises. The fighter jets are easy to fly due to advanced FBW system which did not exist in WW2. It is true that learning things like EW, information warfare, team working etc will need more work compared to WW2. But it is incorrect to say that it is impossible

I do know that current war has changed beyond WW2 and has become more dominated by computers and information. But that only makes quantity even more important as teh enemy's ability to produce large quantity of missiles, SAMs, planes also increase.

Just recently, ISRO announced that 50-60 launches of SSLV is being planned annually. SSLV is said to weigh 120 tons. SSLV is said to cost only about 20 crore rupees. This means that the ability to make Agni-5 is clearly much higher than 50-60 a year. Agni-5 weighs 50 tons and is a proven design. So, the number of such missiles made must be quite large annually. The same can be said about Pakistan or other countries.

All this makes it clear that India will have to make large number of planes and equipment. The pilots and crew can be less trained and left to FBW and sensors to do the locking and shooting jobs of BVR or ground strike missiles. But, the quantity is definitely needed to cover attrition and losses during war.

If you think that fighting with 1000-2000 planes is enough, then even god can't save you. One must have basic common sense to understand that war also involves losses from enemy fire. No matter what quality one has, there is a limit to it and can be easily overwhelmed by enemy quantity. There is a need to have ability to tolerate losses and yet keep fighting. There is no substitute to quantity.

Your stupidity is monumental.......

It may just fall short of Rahul Ghandi himself.!!!

Before talking about war and strategy, I think you need to study how wars are fought!? Especially after WW2. Like 1965, 6 day war, 1971, Israeli 1973 war, both Iraqi wars and Kargil, Kosovo war and Lybian war. If you understand how airforce is used, then probably something might get through your thick skull.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Your stupidity is monumental.......

It may just fall short of Rahul Ghandi himself.!!!

Before talking about war and strategy, I think you need to study how wars are fought!? Especially after WW2. Like 1965, 6 day war, 1971, Israeli 1973 war, both Iraqi wars and Kargil, Kosovo war and Lybian war. If you understand how airforce is used, then probably something might get through your thick skull.

These were minor wars, not like WW2 which was major

 

[lcafanboy]

Let India have 1lakh Tejas MK2, 10thousand AMCA, 10thousand Su30 and keep most of these in storage to be used if the planes are shot down in a war.

From where do you pull out these figures. From your ASS...
Do you know how much pilot training costs and their salary?

You want to bankrupt India. With people like you around, India doesn't need enemies like porkistan to destroy it, you alone are more than enough....