Know Your 'Rafale'

[darshan978]

Read this day : Tejas made its first in flight refuelling. But with no fuel ! Funny isn't it?

looks like u are very disappointed that indians finally going ahead with tejas and no more buying rafales,i see your frustration dude , you seems nationalist french just like me indian nationalist

 

[patriots]

...............................................................

 

[Shakti Malik]

As the political slugfest over Rafale deal continues, it is being learnt that only one of the total 36 Rafale fighter aircraft with India-specific enhancements will be supplied to New Delhi from Paris until the end of the contract period

........
The source also said that till the time the first Rafale fighter aircraft is certified with India-Specific enhancements, the remaining 35 Rafale aircraft would have already been delivered to India. The report in the daily further said that these 35 aircraft would be modified in India in the next five months.

https://www.financialexpress.com/de...ll-arrive-in-india-custom-made-report/1306643

 

[Mikesingh]

The Rafale Truth EXPOSED


Now will RaGa, his Cong dirty tricks dept and his Leftist cronies who all have egg on their faces, STFU?

There's more....

Ambani’s Reliance Group of companies filed Rs 5,000-crore defamation suits each against Congress-owned Associated Journals Ltd, which runs National Herald, and party leaders, claiming that an article published by the newspaper regarding the Rafale fighter deal was “libellous and derogatory”.

Besides National Herald, defamation suits were filed against Gujarat Congress party leader and current in-charge of the Bihar Congress Shaktisinh Gohil, Punjab Pradesh Congress Committee president Sunil Jakhar and party spokesperson Priyanka Chaturvedi, among others. The suits have been filed by Reliance Defence, Reliance Infrastructure and Reliance Aerostructure of the the Anil Ambani-led Reliance Group.

Things are hotting up!! Exciting times ahead!

 

[indus]

As the political slugfest over Rafale deal continues, it is being learnt that only one of the total 36 Rafale fighter aircraft with India-specific enhancements will be supplied to New Delhi from Paris until the end of the contract period

........
The source also said that till the time the first Rafale fighter aircraft is certified with India-Specific enhancements, the remaining 35 Rafale aircraft would have already been delivered to India. The report in the daily further said that these 35 aircraft would be modified in India in the next five months.

https://www.financialexpress.com/de...ll-arrive-in-india-custom-made-report/1306643

Media has a habit of sensationalising everything. What is wrong with the thing. Since Rafale is totally new aircraft for India we so not have the facility to certify the plane after the ISEs are added to the basic aircraft. Because after its modified its performance specifications change and they have to be re certified. So once the plane loaded with ISEs arrive in India certified from France itself, the remaining ones can be certified to its level of performance here only. And this whole process is time consuming. So by the time the first one gets certified OK with all the ISEs put in, the others would have been manufactured in Dassault France. Because serial production is easy, modifying and recalibrating takes time. I dont see anything wrong in it to be even reported.

 

[lcafanboy]

By the way, there used to be a guy who asked for 1 lakh Tejas....are you the same guy!?

He seems to be the same guy @Kshithij "SHIT JI"

One lakh fighters.

This idiot doesn't even know and see that even if we add up all the fighters from all the countries across the world we won't even reach 50000 fighters. And this idiot wants India to have 100000 fighters. He can't even see that a single su30mki or Rafale or f18, any 4.5 gen fighter, etc. Is as effective as 1 or even 2 squadrons of WW1 and WW2 fighters. The era of carpet bombing is gone and similarly era of dog fighting is gone too. Also the cost a single 4.5gen fighter will cost as much as 2 to 4 squadrons of WW1 and WW2 fighter. Producing one lakh fighters will bring down the economy of even mighty US, let alone india.

Further pilot training and cost and salary too are prohibitive. But he doesn't seem to understand...

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

He seems to be the same guy @Kshithij "SHIT JI"

One lakh fighters.

This idiot doesn't even know and see that even if we add up all the fighters from all the countries across the world we won't even reach 50000 fighters. And this idiot wants India to have 100000 fighters. He can't even see that a single su30mki or Rafale or f18, any 4.5 gen fighter, etc. Is as effective as 1 or even 2 squadrons of WW1 and WW2 fighters. The era of carpet bombing is gone and similarly era of dog fighting is gone too. Also the cost a single 4.5gen fighter will cost as much as 2 to 4 squadrons of WW1 and WW2 fighter. Producing one lakh fighters will bring down the economy of even mighty US, let alone india.

Further pilot training and cost and salary too are prohibitive. But he doesn't seem to understand...

According to you everything is gone! For you everyone and everything appear the same. It is not my problem.

The number of fighters in 1939 was also in few thousands but the lakhs were built during war. So, the same situation is today..Carpet bombing does exist and nothing has changed. Do you think enemies will be killed by magic? Carpet bombing is the only way still available, not magic.

The cost is relative. We can't compare 1940s cost with today. If India can produce 3 crore vehicles every year, then producing 10000 planes a year will not bring the economy down. It takes basic common sense to understand this. A LED bulb costed 1000 rupees when it came out. But now it costs less than 100. Same will apply to everything else. Also, pilot training is not hard. India already has about 10000-15000 pilots in civil airliners who will know a lot of basics. In addition, semitrained pilots can be made by 2 months of rigorous training sessions. Salary expense is never a concern during war as war fighting is a service, not just about salary

 

[sorcerer]

IAF quietly making preparations to welcome Rafale jets

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-welcome-rafale-jets/articleshow/65741485.cms

• A number of IAF teams have already visited France to help Dassault Aviation incorporate India-specific enhancements on-board the fighter aircraft.

• Dassault Aviation has already started test flight of Rafale jets to be supplied to India and the company has been told to adhere to the timeline for delivery systems among others.

• A team of IAF pilots have already trained on Rafale jets in France and they will again go there by end of the year, sources said.

• Sources said the first squadron of the aircraft will be deployed in Ambala air force station, considered one of the most strategically located bases of the IAF. The Indo-Pak border is around 220 km from there.

• The second squadron of Rafale will be stationed at Hasimara base in West Bengal.

• Officials said the government has already sanctioned around Rs 400 crore to develop required infrastructure like shelters, hangers and maintenance facilities at the two bases.

• The sources said France has been regularly briefing India about progress in the project to supply the jets.

 

[dude00720]

I realise this is a Rafale thread, but, since, it closely connected to the Kaveri Engine. My question.

How far have we moved in the Kaveri force improvement? Any news and information on that?

 

[BON PLAN]

A fighter pilot can be semi-trained in 2 months if the need arises.

2 months? only for flying, not to fight !
It's a very long processus to train a fighter pilot so as to fight : tactics, rules, cooperation job, and cockpit mastering.
I think it's more 2 years than 2 months.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

2 months? only for flying, not to fight !
It's a very long processus to train a fighter pilot so as to fight : tactics, rules, cooperation job, and cockpit mastering.
I think it's more 2 years than 2 months.

We don't need all ace fighters. As I said, Quantity x Quality is needed. 1 Lakh mean 100,000 or one hundred thousand. I am seeking these many Tejas MK2 planes. So, some sub-optimal training will also be sufficient when you have higher quantity. Training has to be 8-10 hours a day rigorous for 2 months with only practical knowledge. No theory or examination is needed either. It will fasten things up a lot. People can learn tricks and cooperation quite fast. The more refining is not needed when the quantity is large and losses expected and considered as 'normal'.

 

[BON PLAN]

I realise this is a Rafale thread, but, since, it closely connected to the Kaveri Engine. My question.

How far have we moved in the Kaveri force improvement? Any news and information on that?

For the moment it's just a help by SAFRAN to make it airworhty (not really a "Help", because it's financed by the Rafale deal offsets).
After that, all depend on the Indian top brass support.

 

[BON PLAN]

We don't need all ace fighters. As I said, Quantity x Quality is needed. 1 Lakh mean 100,000 or one hundred thousand. I am seeking these many Tejas MK2 planes. So, some sub-optimal training will also be sufficient when you have higher quantity. Training has to be 8-10 hours a day rigorous for 2 months with only practical knowledge. No theory or examination is needed either. It will fasten things up a lot. People can learn tricks and cooperation quite fast. The more refining is not needed when the quantity is large and losses expected and considered as 'normal'.

No ace fighter? maybe not. But no rooky no more. We are speaking of 50 to 100 million $ planes.
(mode joke ON)
Sorry, I forget a few minutes that Indian was not the richest country of the world ...
(joke OFF)

You are far far away from reality.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

No ace fighter? maybe not. But no rooky no more. We are speaking of 50 to 100 million $ planes.
(mode joke ON)
Sorry, I forget a few minutes that Indian was not the richest country of the world ...
(joke OFF)

You are far far away from reality.

The cost is high due to low scale of manufacture. A plant which can churn out, say, flight computer chips, can churn out the chips at high quantity, generally 40,000-200,000 per month. But Tejas needs only 1chip per 3months. So, now the plant has to run only once in 10-15 years but still built and maintained just like any other plant. So, the entire cost has to be recouped in that one single production. So, the cost of the flight computer chip will become $100000 per chip. But, if the chips are used in 40000 per month, the cost per chip would go down to $10 per chip. So, by increasing the scale, cost can be decreased.

India may not be rich country but it still has lots of intelligent people and some natural resources. India makes 5 million personal and commercial vehicles (4 wheelers and bigger vehicles) every year. This should make you understand Indian manufacturing capability.

Fighter planes can be made for $3 million instead of $100 million if scaling in manufacturing is adopted

 

[BON PLAN]

Fighter planes can be made for $3 million instead of $100 million if scaling in manufacturing is adopted

Lockeed Martin was less ambitious : they thaught it was possible to produce a F35 at a F16 price....
They failed.

3 millions? half the price of a CFM56 engine, produced at a higher rate.... => You are dreaming my friend.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Lockeed Martin was less ambitious : they thaught it was possible to produce a F35 at a F16 price....
They failed.

3 millions? half the price of a CFM56 engine, produced at a higher rate.... => You are dreaming my friend.

Can you explain what is the reason for a plane like Rafale weighing 10tons to cost $100 million? The cost of precious metal like silver for 10 ton costs $5.5 million. Why is the Rafale costing $100 million? Which part costs that much?

The manhour labour needed to assemble rafale is about 30000 hours. Assuming cost of $4 per hour for Indian labour (about Rs 50000 per month salary with sunday, saturday off), the total cost will come to $120000. The additional labour to make the parts will come out to be some more, say another 30000 hours which further costs $120000. The raw material and other transportation cost needed will be upto $3 million only. Cost of electricity, water etc can be taken as equal to $1million. With some overhead, total cost of rafale comes to less than $5million

Rafale labour requirement is guessed by comparing the labour requirement for F35. F35 requires about 45000 hours labour including some time to rework due to teething issues. It is likely to come to 35000 hours as design matures. Here is a link to show F35 requires abut 45,000 hours labour to make:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21367/it-takes-47000-hours-of-labor-to-build-a-single-f-35a

1 man working for 8hours a day, 5 days a week for 52 weeks a year will work for about 2000 hours a year. So, 60000 hour labour means total of 30 workers worth of labour. If we exclude the design and development cost of the plane and infrastructure setting up, we have the operational cost for manufacturing a rafale plane quite low at less than $5 million. Even if the salary, electricity cost etc is higher in developed countries, say, salary is $40 dollar a hour, and electricity costs and overhead costs higher by 4 times, the total cost of Rafale should still come to less than $10 million.

The reason for high cost is that the labour is not optimally used. Each specialisation requires separate set of workers. The low number of planes ordered reduces the optimal usage of labour. A worker who can work for 2000 hours is now working for only 100-150 hours per year and rest of the time is spent on other desk work. By using the labour optimally by increasing the scaling of manufacturing, the cost of rafale can easily come to 10% of its current cost

 

[indus]

The cost is high due to low scale of manufacture. A plant which can churn out, say, flight computer chips, can churn out the chips at high quantity, generally 40,000-200,000 per month. But Tejas needs only 1chip per 3months. So, now the plant has to run only once in 10-15 years but still built and maintained just like any other plant. So, the entire cost has to be recouped in that one single production. So, the cost of the flight computer chip will become $100000 per chip. But, if the chips are used in 40000 per month, the cost per chip would go down to $10 per chip. So, by increasing the scale, cost can be decreased.

India may not be rich country but it still has lots of intelligent people and some natural resources. India makes 5 million personal and commercial vehicles (4 wheelers and bigger vehicles) every year. This should make you understand Indian manufacturing capability.

Fighter planes can be made for $3 million instead of $100 million if scaling in manufacturing is adopted

I am not sure there would be a plant that runs once in 10- 15 years, yet has to be mantained afresh. What does the labour do in the free time. Do they take other jobs and come back to produce chips after a decade. Just like the Flying Dutchman captain could come to land once every 10 yrs.
And btw Economy of scale works for a certain optimal range of production quantities only. It does not reduce linearly with increasing quantities. If u have not seen a graph like below plz do read.

SAC is short term average production costs.
LAC is Long term prodn costs. P n denotes various production values. So prodn costs start rising again after certain levels are crossed.
Why dont u post something logical for a change. I mean pleasssee.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I am not sure there would be a plant that runs once in 10- 15 years, yet has to be mantained afresh. What does the labour do in the free time. Do they take other jobs and come back to produce chips after a decade. Just like the Flying Dutchman captain could come to land once every 10 yrs.
And btw Economy of scale works for a certain optimal range of production quantities only. It does not reduce linearly with increasing quantities. If u have not seen a graph like below plz do read.
View attachment 27638
SAC is short term average production costs.
LAC is Long term prodn costs. P n denotes various production values. So prodn costs start rising again after certain levels are crossed.
Why dont u post something logical for a change. I mean pleasssee.

I know that a plant does not run once in 10-15 years and that is exactly why they have to be maintained regularly, given pseudo works etc. The workers are asked to design new chips, hold seminars, start projects to research new techniques of manufacture, research on new materials like alloys or different semiconductor, develop new techniques of lithography etc just to provide employment and to maintain the factory. Another way of increasing workload is by asking the workers to ensure rigorous quality checks. Each batch of parts is limited to certain quantity. 15% of each batch has to be taken away for testing Various testing like keeping in high temperature, testing for tensile strength, brittleness etc have to be done, some which require weeks of heating or exposure. Several tests are needed to be conducted on each batch to ensure quality is maintained. After the tests are all cleared, the parts are selected. Even if one test is failed, parts are rejected. After the production of each batch, the machines has to undergo inspection and checks.

The ways to unnecessarily waste time and labour is employed to ensure that the workers are made to work continually while the number produced is low. This serves to reduce the number of defence equipment that a country not producing it can import. For example, USA would prefer that Saudi Arabia buys only 100 F15 planes for $25 billion package rather than buy buy 1000-2000 planes for the same amount. But, the amount needed is still $25 billion to bridge the trade deficit. However, defence items being highly strategic in nature, it is not acceptable to simply make Saudi Arabia stronger by allowing large scale defence exports.

About, the graphs, I know of them. I also know of an optimal economy of scale beyond which cost increases. I am only saying that current production is not even 10% the optimal figures and is being deliberately kept that way to avoid exporting more arms to others but only create a facade of exporting to create artificial sense of safety. This is a means of deception

 

[bhramos]

IAF quietly making preparations to welcome Rafale jets

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-welcome-rafale-jets/articleshow/65741485.cms

• A number of IAF teams have already visited France to help Dassault Aviation incorporate India-specific enhancements on-board the fighter aircraft.

• Dassault Aviation has already started test flight of Rafale jets to be supplied to India and the company has been told to adhere to the timeline for delivery systems among others.

• A team of IAF pilots have already trained on Rafale jets in France and they will again go there by end of the year, sources said.

• Sources said the first squadron of the aircraft will be deployed in Ambala air force station, considered one of the most strategically located bases of the IAF. The Indo-Pak border is around 220 km from there.

• The second squadron of Rafale will be stationed at Hasimara base in West Bengal.

• Officials said the government has already sanctioned around Rs 400 crore to develop required infrastructure like shelters, hangers and maintenance facilities at the two bases.

• The sources said France has been regularly briefing India about progress in the project to supply the jets.

“Quietly”

Not sure if they’re expecting the Air Force to bang bartans outside their bases to announce preparations for the Rafales.

 

[BON PLAN]

Can you explain what is the reason for a plane like Rafale weighing 10tons to cost $100 million? The cost of precious metal like silver for 10 ton costs $5.5 million. Why is the Rafale costing $100 million? Which part costs that much?

The manhour labour needed to assemble rafale is about 30000 hours. Assuming cost of $4 per hour for Indian labour (about Rs 50000 per month salary with sunday, saturday off), the total cost will come to $120000. The additional labour to make the parts will come out to be some more, say another 30000 hours which further costs $120000. The raw material and other transportation cost needed will be upto $3 million only. Cost of electricity, water etc can be taken as equal to $1million. With some overhead, total cost of rafale comes to less than $5million

Rafale labour requirement is guessed by comparing the labour requirement for F35. F35 requires about 45000 hours labour including some time to rework due to teething issues. It is likely to come to 35000 hours as design matures. Here is a link to show F35 requires abut 45,000 hours labour to make:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21367/it-takes-47000-hours-of-labor-to-build-a-single-f-35a

1 man working for 8hours a day, 5 days a week for 52 weeks a year will work for about 2000 hours a year. So, 60000 hour labour means total of 30 workers worth of labour. If we exclude the design and development cost of the plane and infrastructure setting up, we have the operational cost for manufacturing a rafale plane quite low at less than $5 million. Even if the salary, electricity cost etc is higher in developed countries, say, salary is $40 dollar a hour, and electricity costs and overhead costs higher by 4 times, the total cost of Rafale should still come to less than $10 million.

The reason for high cost is that the labour is not optimally used. Each specialisation requires separate set of workers. The low number of planes ordered reduces the optimal usage of labour. A worker who can work for 2000 hours is now working for only 100-150 hours per year and rest of the time is spent on other desk work. By using the labour optimally by increasing the scaling of manufacturing, the cost of rafale can easily come to 10% of its current cost

Take just one exemple :
Give to your wife a golden jewel. its price is far higher than the sole gold. Why? because you have to pay for the designer work, for the guy who made the jewel, for the jeweller, VAT...

In a fighter case, there is a part of R&D in the price (in the Rafale case, 25% of the R&D was paid by Dassault, Thales, Snecma), the price of a single mono crystal blade of the engine is more than its weight in gold. A T/R module of the AESA radar probably also.

The skilled workers in a plane factory are not paid 4$ per hour even in Indi.

What is the weight of a software? The price per Kilo of Windows 10 is so huge.... => Weight is not the right mesure.

Bro, you can be sure that if it was possible to reduce by 10 the price, it was discover since 1950...