Know Your 'Rafale'

[Chinmoy]

Fact Check: Rahul Gandhi changed price of Rafale aircraft 4 times in 5 months

The cost of Rafale deal has become one of the most debated topics ever since the Congress used it to target the NDA regime. But the big question is, what was the actual price of each Rafale aircraft during the UPA regime?

Even Congress president Rahul Gandhi, who on numerous occasions quoted different prices, is visibly oblivious to the actual cost of the fighter plane under the UPA government.


In the past five months, the Congress president in various public meetings has quoted four different prices for Rafale aircraft during UPA government.

While the Congress party is trying to corner Narendra Modi government over the Rafale aircraft deal by calling it the biggest scam in the last four years, Rahul's wide swing over the prices comes as an embarrassment for the Grand Old Party.

To throw light on the inconsistency and twisting of facts, India Today's Fact Check team has tracked Rahul Gandhi's speeches from April 2018.

Rahul compared the prices of the Rafale aircraft for the first time on April 29 at Jan Akrosh Rally in New Delhi. The Gandhi scion made the comparison in an attempt to show how the price of each aircraft escalated under the Prime Minister Narendra Modi government.

"When Manmohan Singh was prime minister each Rafale aircraft would cost Rs 700 crore," said Rahul Gandhi.

"But Narendra Modi went to France and the price of each aircraft became Rs 1,500 crore.It just becomes double right away," he added.

Rahul went on to reiterate the same figures for the next two months. On May 3, during a rally in Karnataka's Bidar, Rahul mentioned the same prices.


In the above video (between 35:25 to 36:50), Rahul Gandhi can be seen saying, "During UP the price of a Rafale aircraft was Rs 700 crore, Modiji changed it to Rs 1,500 crore per aircraft.

On July 20, in his landmark speech during the no confidence motion against Modi government in Lok Sabha, he attacked Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman on Rafale deal.

Here, for the first time he announced that during the UPA rule, the cost of each Rafale plane was Rs 520 crore and after Modi's visit to France it shot up to Rs 1,600 crore.

The UPA price scaled down from Rs 700 crore to Rs 520 crore and NDA price scaled up by Rs 100 crore.

July 20, Rahul Gandhi in Parliament -No confidence motion speech in Lok Sabha.


In less than three weeks from his speech in the Parliament, Rahul Gandhi in a public rally in Raipur reminded the people about the speech and quoted a different figure for each Rafale aircraft.

This time his cost for each Rafale aircraft during the UPA rule increased by Rs 20 crore, from Rs 520 crore to Rs 540 crore.


The most amazing flip-flop over Rafale prices came from the Congress president on August 11. Within just two minutes he quoted two different prices - Rs 520 crore and Rs 540 for each aircraft.

But before you settle between Rs 520 crore and Rs 540 crore, Gandhi came out with another new figure for Rafale aircraft. This time it is Rs 526 crore for each aircraft. In both the rallies - in Bidar and Hyderabad - he quoted the same figure.

On August 13, Rahul Gandhi while speaking at a rally in Hyderabad said, "I asked him (PM Modi) in Parliament, Modiji how did the price of Rafale aircraft escalate from Rs 526 crore to Rs 1,600 crore. But Modi ji did not reply."


https://www.indiatoday.in/fact-chec...rcraft-4-times-in-5-months-1314622-2018-08-14

Ok... Changed the price 4 times in 5 months??? On lighter note it intrigues me, how many times he changes diaper in a day?

 

[lcafanboy]

Ok... Changed the price 4 times in 5 months??? On lighter note it intrigues me, how many times he changes diaper in a day?

DAIPERS?
Man, He soils that itlalian waitress Mummy's clothes while sucking her nipples for milk....

 

[arya]

DAIPERS?
Man, He soils that itlalian waitress Mummy's clothes while sucking her nipples for milk....

Mind your lang his mother is as respectful as your or my . next time check your word .

Mother is the best one after God . doesnot matter your or my or anyone .


Admin should check this type of lang . we are Indian we always show respect to mother

 

[Sancho]

Rafale is a very capable plane - it's good that we have them. How many do we actually need is the question. No need to buy more than we actually need.

And as IAF stated time and time again, we need a minimum of 126 x MMRCAs, with a long term requirement of 200 to 250. That's why the original requirement, beginning with the add on order for Mirage 2000-5 in the early 2000s, was for 126 fighters.
No justification of the Rafale deal, or ignoring of the facts and realities, can make this figure go away!

 

[Kay]

And as IAF stated time and time again, we need a minimum of 126 x MMRCAs, with a long term requirement of 200 to 250. That's why the original requirement, beginning with the add on order for Mirage 2000-5 in the early 2000s, was for 126 fighters.
No justification of the Rafale deal, or ignoring of the facts and realities, can make this figure go away!

That is why they are making Tejas MK2 as having tonnage equivalent to Mirage.
We need 42 squadrons of aicraft as per IAF (how that number is arrived at is another story). But foreign purchase is not the answer.

 

[Sancho]

That is why they are making Tejas MK2 as having tonnage equivalent to Mirage.

Not really, because having too little tonnage was not the problem of Tejas and adding more of it, won't make it comparable to the upgraded M2Ks with higher missile loads, less limitations on the centerline, let alone to MMRCAs wit superior senors and EW. So that's not a justifications for a bad Rafale deal either.

No matter if we had gone for an MMRCA Rafale deal, or a G2G Rafale deal, it should had been for 126 fighters, with licence production and ToT, anything else was a major loss!

 

[WolfPack86]

Do you think Indian Navy will go for Rafale M as next aircraft carrier borne fighter jet?
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamINDRA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[WolfPack86]

It's Indian Air Force is getting total 72 Rafale fighter aircraft.

 

[Armand2REP]

Do you think Indian Navy will go for Rafale M as next aircraft carrier borne fighter jet?
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamINDRA/photos/?ref=page_internal

If Modi wins re-election you can count on it. If not you won't be seeing much French equipment ever sold to India again.

 

[lcafanboy]

If Modi wins re-election you can count on it. If not you won't be seeing much French equipment ever sold to India again.

Whether Modi wins election or not Rafales are coming in huge numbers. Policies in any country are made by govt employees in India are made by IAS (BABOOS), IPS, defence forces read IAF in rafale case, deep state read ambani here. So no matter what government comes to power Rafales are coming in huge numbers.

Remember bjp was against Rafale deal but went on to purchase it. Why? It's the back end govt employees that run any country. Only thing that will matter is amount of kick backs, which this govt is clean on but CON-gress may not be with that Italian waitress demanding it's share of pizza...

 

[Sancho]

So no matter what government comes to power Rafales are coming in huge numbers.

And the 36 Rafale deal proves you wrong, because if the PM wanted more, he simply could had made a 126 Rafale G2G deal too and the whole fighter issue would have been done already. But he didn't and that has it's reasons, which you can't ignore!

There is a reason why Parrikar wanted not to buy any Rafales/MMRCAs at all and invest in MKIs instead, there is a reason why the PM limited the G2G deal to a pointless 36 only, there is a reason why NSA Doval wanted IAF to take LCAs instead of SE MMRCAs...

They are trying to avoid to buy any kind of MMRCAs, because they don't want to spend that much money on a single procurement (or defence as a whole).
It also was a BJP government, that didn't went for the 126 Mirage licence production offer initially and opened the whole tender games.

 

[Prashant12]

And the 36 Rafale deal proves you wrong, because if the PM wanted more, he simply could had made a 126 Rafale G2G deal too and the whole fighter issue would have been done already. But he didn't and that has it's reasons, which you can't ignore!

There is a reason why Parrikar wanted not to buy any Rafales/MMRCAs at all and invest in MKIs instead, there is a reason why the PM limited the G2G deal to a pointless 36 only, there is a reason why NSA Doval wanted IAF to take LCAs instead of SE MMRCAs...

They are trying to avoid to buy any kind of MMRCAs, because they don't want to spend that much money on a single procurement (or defence as a whole).
It also was a BJP government, that didn't went for the 126 Mirage licence production offer initially and opened the whole tender games.

Fact Check:

126 Rafale was scraped because :

100% price escalation on Rafale fighter aircraft to Rs 1.75 lakh crore likely to dent IAF's strike capability

India’s biggest deal of procuring 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore) has hit rough weather. Two years after French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation bagged the deal for its Rafale fighter jets on account of being the lowest bidder, its cost has now shot up by 100 per cent.

In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). A top defence ministry official said the price of a fighter jet made by Dassault could now cost $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore).

The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore),” said an Indian Air Force (IAF) official, who is privy to discussions of the cost negotiation committee.


The defence ministry headed by AK Antony has developed cold feet after the cost doubled compared to the original estimate. With the general elections just months away, Antony is unsure about the fate of the deal, a defence ministry official said. “As the negotiations continue, the cost is spiralling out of hand. It is a major worry,” he said.

An IAF official said that in 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore).

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...ikely-to-dent-iaf-s-strike-capability-1957107

It also was a BJP government, that didn't went for the 126 Mirage licence production offer initially and opened the whole tender games.

No it was Congress!

“In order to replace the existing MiG-21 aircraft, a case to procure 126 Mirage-2000 aircraft was initiated in the year 2000, which was later converted to procurement of 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA)," said a written answer from in the Rajya Sabha today.

National Democratic Alliance (NDA) defence minister at that time, George Fernandes. Under fire from the Congress and the media after the Tehelka defence corruption exposes, Fernandes was unwilling to invite more charges by entering a single-vendor contract with Dassault.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...ers-met-iaf-criteria-govt-117121801072_1.html

 

[Sancho]

Fact Check:

126 Rafale was scraped because

Those are parts of the reasons why MMRCA was scrapped, not why the government didn't go for a 126 Rafale G2G deal, or why they wanted to avoid the MMRCA deal as explained. So as said before, if they really wanted, they could had gone for higher Rafale numbers already!

No it was Congress!

You might want to read that article once more, to understand who was in power back then.

 

[Prashant12]

Those are parts of the reasons why MMRCA was scrapped, not why the government didn't go for a 126 Rafale G2G deal, or why they wanted to avoid the MMRCA deal as explained. So as said before, if they really wanted, they could had gone for higher Rafale numbers already!

Price of 126 MMRCA/Rafale (G2G) is main reason.

Other reason include:

After months of seeing Dassault Aviation being browbeaten in the Indian press, French arms procurement agency DGA defended its contractor, asserting that a 2012 agreement to provide India with Rafale fighter jets never committed the company to guarantee aircraft manufactured in India at state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL). However, a recent senior adviser to HAL’s management tells Aviation Week that guaranteeing HAL’s work is not the issue, but that the French are being “rigid” and refusing to stand behind the integrity of the design.

“Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract. It is a co-management setup,” says French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon, who was clear that France will not assume full liability for HAL-built Rafales. “It cannot be a problem, because it was not in the request for proposals [RFP].”

http://aviationweek.com/defense/france-india-disagree-over-key-rafale-contract-issue

You might want to read that article once more, to understand who was in power back then.

BJP was in power with help of allies. But who politicized 126 mirage deal ?

 

[Sancho]

Price of 126 MMRCA/Rafale (G2G) is main reason.

So you agree, that the government wanted to save money and cut the requirement.

BJP was in power with help of allies.

And you also agree that it was a BJP government, that didn't went for the 126 Mirage licence production offer.

But still you refute what I said somehow?


I am all for facts and sources, but randomly posting reports, that doesn't even support, what you "want" them to say, doesn't really help your argument.

We all can hope for more Rafales (I would like to see at least 1 more squad to couple 3 Rafale with 3 Mirage squads, sadly we don't have an option clause), but under this government, the chances for more than 36 additional once are low for the mentioned reasons of their own decisions.
The fact that Congress politicised the deal now (just as BJP in 2013), only makes it worse for Rafale...

...and all that, only because Dassault messed up the MMRCA negotiations, otherwise we would see them flying in Indian air space already!

 

[lcafanboy]

And the 36 Rafale deal proves you wrong, because if the PM wanted more, he simply could had made a 126 Rafale G2G deal too and the whole fighter issue would have been done already. But he didn't and that has it's reasons, which you can't ignore!

There is a reason why Parrikar wanted not to buy any Rafales/MMRCAs at all and invest in MKIs instead, there is a reason why the PM limited the G2G deal to a pointless 36 only, there is a reason why NSA Doval wanted IAF to take LCAs instead of SE MMRCAs...

They are trying to avoid to buy any kind of MMRCAs, because they don't want to spend that much money on a single procurement (or defence as a whole).
It also was a BJP government, that didn't went for the 126 Mirage licence production offer initially and opened the whole tender games.

Rafales will keep coming in tranches. Since french tried to wriggle out of deal to provide tot for various technologies especially jet engine technology Modi has set milestones 36 Rafales. Make kaveri k9 engine fly and get another tranche for 36 Rafale to improve it to k10 standard with 100kn. Hence all the noise about kaveri engine getting ready to fly after being certified by French. Why India hasn't yet ordered ge404 for LCA? In all probability kaveri k9 with 85kn could be delivered for LCA Mk1A. Once done more rafales will come.

Also we will save money on costly upgrades as next Rafale tranche will be for Rafale F4 standard instead of negotiated f3r standard. See the su-30 deal we are still buying obsolete 2004 version while we are negotiating super sukhoi upgrade costing as much as a complete new plane.... Imagine the cost of newer su30mki we are buying and upgrading immediately....

 

[Prashant12]

So you agree, that the government wanted to save money and cut the requirement.

Are you justifying 28 - 30 billion price for 4th gen fighter ?.

The requirement is not just 126 jets but also other equiments like artillery, missiles, warships, nuclear subs etc.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/france-india-disagree-over-key-rafale-contract-issue

I am all for facts and sources, but randomly posting reports, that doesn't even support, what you "want" them to say, doesn't really help your argument.

These are not random reports,but reported across indian media, since rafale was declared as L1.

And you also agree that it was a BJP government, that didn't went for the 126 Mirage licence production offer.

It was NDA Govt and not bjp.

It takes 272 seats to form govt. BJP only had 182 seats, hence it cannot sign deal that heavily politicized.
So it was congress which was against it.

There many other examples like:

1) Bofors guns: India wanted 1580 artillery guns but due to politics it was limited to 414 guns with no license production.

2)Indian navy wanted 8 type 209 sub, but due to politics and corruption it was limited to just 4. Today indian navy facing shortage of subs.

Conclusion: Politics on defense deals only hurts armed forces. Simple Truth.

The fact that Congress politicised the deal now (just as BJP in 2013), only makes it worse for Rafale...

True. I don't think India will ever acquire any more rafale due politics on it.

Su-30mki / Upgraded is best cost effective solution till tejas mk2.

 

[Sancho]

Are you justifying 28 - 30 billion price for 4th gen fighter ?.

If it helps to protect the country, 100%!!!
But as Parrikar stated, 126 Rafales would have required 90.000 crores INR / ~ 14 billion USD. Now you tell me, what's better?

14 billion for...
- 126 fighters
- at air bases all around the country
- with licence production
- with critical ToT
- with option clause for 63 more
- with 7 billion offsets, reinvested into our aviation industry with state of the art techs


Compared to the PMs deal

9 billion USD for...
- only 36 fighters
- only at 2 air bases in the north
- no licence production
- no critical ToT
- no option clause
- only 4.5 USD billion offsets, reinvested into our aviation industry for screwdriver jobs

Even if we had paid 20 billion, there is no doubt that any MMRCA deal, would had been better for India, IAF and our aviation industry, than the bad deal of the PM!

Th9e requirement is not just 126 jets but also other equiments like artillery, missiles, warships, nuclear subs etc.

Wrong, every force has their own operational requirements and their own budgets, based on the overall defence budget, so don't try to mix up all together.

These are not random reports,but reported across indian media, since rafale was declared as L1.

Not the reports are random, but you trying to justify your points with articles that don't support it.

It was NDA Govt and not bjp.

:biggrin2:

 

[Sancho]

Why India hasn't yet ordered ge404 for LCA?

Because there is no order for MK1A in the fist place! We are only at RFP stage yet, which includes the orders of the engines too and IAF has issues with HALs price.

In all probability kaveri k9 with 85kn could be delivered for LCA Mk1A.

Lol, so you have doubts that Kaveri reaches the promised 90kN with French parts as well?

Also we will save money on costly upgrades as next Rafale tranche will be for Rafale F4 standard instead of negotiated f3r standard.

That doesn't make any sense. Since when are new versions, with new capabilities, cheaper than the old once? And without the 50% option clause, we put Dassault once again in the better position to negotiate. So in reality, any F4 order is likely to be costlier in flyaway condition.

 

[Sancho]

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