Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

It was clear even back then IAF would slap some Israeli helmets, weapons and other things onto it's versions.

ISE are based on IAFs operational requirements and what the selected fighter offers in that regard, or if it lacks certain capabilities. Sadly too many people confuse it as something specific to the Rafale deal, which is nonsense, since any fighter gets ISEs even upgraded once, which is why the Mirage 2000 has most of the ISE as Rafale.
On the other side, the EF might have less ISE requirements, since HMS, Litening pod, high thrust engines, Towed Decoy, or the same RWR IAF uses on the Mig 29UPG, would already be available.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

A single Rafale can carry

2 fuel tanks
2 x BVR missiles
2 x WVR missiles
Up to 6 x 500lb LGBs

for basic CAS roles.

You need 2 to 3 LCAs to carry only the bombs, with additional LCAs in escort configs, because LCA can't carry 4 x AAMs in strike configs.

Don't just claim things, just to disagree, at least look up the official ADA mission configs to understand what it can do.

How did Rafale get 12 hardpoints? I a surprised at your numbers

 

[Sancho]

How did Rafale get 12 hardpoints? I a surprised at your numbers

Lol, it even has 14 (although some are for specific loads only), when you don't even know that, how can you comment on Rafale capabilities at all? :biggrin2:

It's always fun, when people "believe" to know things and start commenting, without even informing themselves on the basics.

 

[Prashant12]

it's technically not as capable as most MMRCAs .

Su-30 is as capable as MMRCAs .

needs an upgrade, that also increases it's costs.

So ?

All fighter jets requires upgrade and even 126 rafale jets require upgrade in future which will increase its costs futher.

Just look at cost of upgrading single engine mirage 2000 cost, which does not even include engine upgrade.

High cost of Mirage-2000 upgrade raises eyebrows

Should India have simply gone in for new fighters rather than upgrading its 51 Mirage-2000s at an exorbitant cost? This question came to the fore once again on Monday with defence minister AK Antonytelling Parliament that the upgrade cost for each jet was Rs 167 crore.

Now compare with mig 29 gupgrade:

IAF is also undertaking upgrade of its 63 MiG-29s at a cost of $964 million deal inked with Russia in March, 2008.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...rade-raises-eyebrows/articleshow/18804336.cms

An official shared this example. The radar on the Rafale jet is to be manufactured by Bharat-Electronics Ltd (BEL) at its facility in Bangalore. The Radome (the protruding snub nose on the aircraft) is, however, manufactured by HAL at its Hyderabad facility. Dassault wants clarity on how the two units will coordinate their activities.

No country gives tot of the radar. So its just assembly just like mki radar.

First of all you don't know that, unless you were part of the UPA or NDA negotiation teams, which I highly doubt.

You were part of UPA negotiation team then ?

In 2007 UPA rejected French offer for Kaveri engine.

IAF not keen on French offer for Kaveri engine

https://www.thehindu.com/todays-pap...h-offer-for-Kaveri-engine/article15368364.ece

You only tried to spin the content of the article to make it suit you, but that's it.

Its you tried to spin the content of the article to make it suit you, not me.

It's a fact congress used tehelka magazine to politicize 126 mirage 2000 deal.

The LCA programme has the most industrial meaning and benefits for Indian aviation industry, but in operational terms for IAF, it is nothing but a low end supporting fighter requirement, while MKI and MMRCAs are needed to defend the country with the necessary capability.

LCA MK1 was designed to replace mig 21and it meets operational terms for IAF.
LCA MK2 & additional Su 30 are enough to defend the country and have required capability.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Lol, it even has 14 (although some are for specific loads only), when you don't even know that, how can you comment on Rafale capabilities at all? :biggrin2:

It's always fun, when people "believe" to know things and start commenting, without even informing themselves on the basics.

Is doubling a single pylon considered meaningful? Even tejas can replace centreline tank with 2 missiles and replace the gun and LGB with tiny missiles. These foolish hardpoints make no sense. With 2 fuel tank, points numbered 4,5,6 and 9,10,11 will be filled. How will you fit your other bombs?

 

[Jackd]

Rafale with fuel tanks and a lot of other useful stuff.

 

[Jackd]

This is tejas and one of its probable configuration. Now, decide for yourself which plane can bring in more capability to
IAF. Remember, I am in no way dissing Tejas. It's just unjustified to say that rafale is completely useless in front of tejas and how people can conveniently ignore its weapon carrying capacity.

 

[Sancho]

Su-30 is as capable as MMRCAs ...

Only 1 liners and more random articles? What has the rejection of Kaveri Snecma engine in the LCA MK2 engine tender, by IAF, to do with MMRCA or it's offsets? :biggrin2:

I guess there is no point in a further discussion anymore.

Even tejas can replace... the gun... with tiny missiles.

Man that's hilarious

 

[Prashant12]

What has the rejection of Kaveri Snecma engine in the LCA MK2 engine tender, by IAF, to do with MMRCA or it's offsets?

So you agree that su-30 + LCA is enough for IAF ?

And you that agree UPA rejected revival of kaveri engine as well ?

random articles?

Its proof of high cost of upgrading mirage 2000, just like you claim about su-30:

needs an upgrade, that also increases it's costs.

 

[Sancho]

Its proof of high cost of upgrading mirage 2000, just like you claim about su-30:

Lol now Kaveri engine has to do with Mirage upgrade? And you don't even realize that you contradict yourself! On the one hand you claim that MKIs are more cost-effective, while you admit that they need costly upgrades, to be technically comparable to MMRCAs in the first place.

You remain to be wrong, on MKI and LCA being cost-effective, nor capable enough to be an alternative to MMRCA. You also have confirmed that you are wrong on the Mirage issue yourself. You were proven wrong with sources that actually back it up, on the ToT difference between MMRCA Rafale offers and the offsets in the Rafale deal and you avoided to give an answer on which deal, would had been the better one, Parrikars MMRCA, or the PMs deal.

Denial is not an argument.

 

[Prashant12]

Lol now Kaveri engine has to do with Mirage upgrade? .

Who said Kaveri engine has something to do with Mirage upgrade ?.

I said revival of Kaveri engine is part offsets of 36 deal.

while you admit that they need costly upgrades

It's you claiming it needs costly upgrades. And you using this argument to justify 28-30 billion on 4th gen jet.

Even rafales requires upgrades after 15-20 years of service.So you admit cost of upgrading rafale will be cheap ?

Was mirage 2000 upgrade cost effective according to you ?

MKI and LCA being cost-effective, nor capable enough to be an alternative to MMRCA.

MKI has everything from range, payload, powerful thrust vectoring engines, long missiles like brahmos/nirbhay/klub, astra bvr and many drdo weapons as well.
Main difference betwen mki and mmrca is that all six mmrca was offered with aesa radar, something mki does not have at the moment.
Technically MKI is better than mmrca except eurofighter and rafale, but onces mki gets upgraded its better than any mki.

LCA is replacement for mig 21 which is interceptor, where lca has evolved into multi-role jet.
So MKI and LCA being cost-effective and very capable.

You also have confirmed that you are wrong on the Mirage issue yourself.

No. check CAG report on Mirage upgrade.

you avoided to give an answer on which deal, would had been the better one, Parrikars MMRCA, or the PMs deal.

Original MMRCA was better if price was just 10 billlion and includes india-specific modification, tot etc. But it's actual cost is 28-30 billion.

The UPA did not reveal the price quoted by Dassault Aviation in 2011 due to which the French warplane maker made it as L-1 or lowest bidder in January 2012. The deal was subsequently logjammed for over two years because the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and Dassault Aviation could not decide on who would take responsibility for the 108 Rafales that would be manufactured under licence in India-HAL or Dassault.

The mammoth price tag possibly also induced a certain amount of purchase anxiety. When the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had approved the deal in 2007, the MoD envisaged an outgo of $10 billion (Rs 39,000 crore) for the 126 aircraft. This figure was clearly unrealistic as the contract progressed.

Defence analyst Nitin Gokhale's book Securing India the Modi Way mentions that the MoD had, in 2011, benchmarked the total cost of acquisition at Rs 163,403 crore (approximately 23 billion the MoD's entire defence budget for that year).

Going by this figure, the 126 Rafales would have a flyaway cost of Rs 1,296 crore per aircraft. But this total cost of acquisition, as Gokhale adds, was different from the total cost of deliverables in the 126 MMRCA contract, which was benchmarked by the MoD at Rs 69,456 crore, excluding the offset loading cost, estimated to be anywhere between Rs 2,530 crore and Rs 5,060 crore.

The HAL-MoD-Dassault impasse continued even as the NDA assumed office in 2014. In 2015, the government decided to scrap the deal and go for a fresh government-to-government or G2G deal, opting for a smaller number of aircraft because of budgetary reasons. We asked the IAF what was the minimum number of Rafales they needed to meet their combat requirement; 36 is the number they came back to us with, says a senior government official. The Modi government went in for a G2G deal as an emergency procurement. G2G deals are inherently favoured for a variety of reasons because they shorten procurement cycles and cement strategic partnerships. The NDA-1 government signed the massive Su-30MKI deal to import and licence-produce 140 Su-30MKIs from Russia for Rs 22,000 crore in 2000. The UPA signed G2G deals worth over $10 billion with the US for maritime patrol aircraft and heavy lift aircraft between 2006 and 2012.

Off-the-record briefings by the MoD soon after the contract for 36 Rafales was inked in 2016 indicated that a price of 7.8 billion (Rs 59,000 crore) was agreed upon for the 36 aircraft5 billion for the aircraft and 2.85 billion for its weapons and certain India-specific enhancements.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...180806-the-rafale-dogfight-1296568-2018-07-27

 

[Sancho]

Who said Kaveri engine has something to do with Mirage upgrade ?

See you are confusing yourself with all the random nonsense. I asked you what LCA engine selection has to do with MMRCA? Because bringing that up made no sense. To which you replied that it proved high upgrade cost of the Mirage, which neither anwers my question, nor makes any sense either.

It's you claiming it needs costly upgrades.

Lol now you deny your own point? Besides it's a fact, because MKI doesn't have AESA radar, advanced EW capabilities, latest cockpit and avionics like most of the MMRCAs, because as said before, it offered everything we wanted in 1999, not what we wanted from MMRCAs. But all that and more, are part of the coming MKI upgrade and all that, will increase it's cost as well.

So with the upgrades to be technically comparable, it's by far not cost-effective anymore and as we know, it's operational costs are the real problem!
So you point remains wrong on both cost and capability, no matter how often deny even your own statements.

Original MMRCA was better if price was just 10 billlion and includes india-specific modification, tot etc.

MMRCA was never just a 10 billion procurement, that were the estimated costs for the MRCA tender, that the media simply took over for the new tender as well, but a Rafale can't cost the same as a Mirage, which made that bogus anyway.
And you still avoid to answer honestly on the question and just try to distract, which tells a lot! :biggrin2:

Parrikars 14 billion deal vs PMs 9 billion deal, which one was better?

 

[Sancho]

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[vampyrbladez]

...................................................

Five words for you -

Eurofighter Will Never Beat Rafale.

 

[Prashant12]

See you are confusing yourself with all the random nonsense. I asked you what LCA engine selection has to do with MMRCA?

You are confusing yourself . I you asked me what kaveri engine offsets selection has to do with MMRCA ?

But all that and more, are part of the coming MKI upgrade and all that, will increase it's cost as well.

Same logic applies to MMRCA too, every aircrafts requires mid life upgrades. India will upgrade MKI in any case, so it's nonsense argument.

So with the upgrades to be technically comparable

Finally, you admit that its as the capability as that of mmrca.

it's by far not cost-effective anymore and as we know, it's operational costs are the real problem!

Even rafales have high operational costs as same logic applies there as well. Don't tell me that opertional cost of mmrca/rafales are cheap.

MMRCA was never just a 10 billion procurement, that were the estimated costs for the MRCA tender, that the media simply took over for the new tender as well,

MMRCA was 10 billion procurement plan in 2007.

but a Rafale can't cost the same as a Mirage, which made that bogus anyway.

Rafale is every expensive jet and mid life upgrades will very expensive just like mirage upgrade deal.

Parrikars 14 billion deal vs PMs 9 billion deal, which one was better?

14 billion deal was base price of rafale aircraft's which does not inculde cost of spares, airbase -infra, customization and weapons. So no comparison.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Parrikars 14 billion deal vs PMs 9 billion deal, which one was better?

Parrikars 14 billion deal vs PMs 9 billion deal, which one was better?

The cost of 1 rafale is 90 million euros for the base model which comes to 104 million dollars. So, cost for 126 itself comes to over 13 billion. How can entire deal which includes several other things like weapons package, training for pilots, simulators etc cost just $14 billion?

Just stop spamming with outright lies and repeating the same thing over and over again in a cycle. I have noticed that you just repeat the same old posts in a cyclical manner and your post alone has covered several pages in this and Tejas thread but with almost no content

 

[darshan978]

The cost of 1 rafale is 90 million euros for the base model which comes to 104 million dollars. So, cost for 126 itself comes to over 13 billion. How can entire deal which includes several other things like weapons package, training for pilots, simulators etc cost just $14 billion?

Just stop spamming with outright lies and repeating the same thing over and over again in a cycle. I have noticed that you just repeat the same old posts in a cyclical manner and your post alone has covered several pages in this and Tejas thread but with almost no content

andh pidis will never think with logic.
as per his figures on rafale would cost less than 50 mil. which is totally absurd(f-16 without weapon would cost $80mil ) but hack! who want to use brain?
just oppose modi at any cost.and tejas and every indian made wares and be bootlickers of foreign agents and type on comfortable sofa and get commission from their beloved agents!

 

[Kshithij]

This is tejas and one of its probable configuration. Now, decide for yourself which plane can bring in more capability to
IAF. Remember, I am in no way dissing Tejas. It's just unjustified to say that rafale is completely useless in front of tejas and how people can conveniently ignore its weapon carrying capacity.

You are missing the centre line tank of tejas delibrately. The total payload comes to about 2x800kg + 2+500kg + 2x100kg = 2.8 tons. MToW of Tejas is about 14tons. Fuel + empty weight is 9tons. Pylon is about 500kg. So, additional payload of about 1 ton can be carried in addition to this configuration. The centreline can be made to carry 2x 500kg bombs extra

 

[Jackd]

Will the air refuelling probe on the rafale increase it's chance of being detected? Also, does it increases drag on the plane and of what material is the refuelling probe made up of?

 

[Enquirer]

Will the air refuelling probe on the rafale increase it's chance of being detected? Also, does it increases drag on the plane and of what material is the refuelling probe made up of?

It'll increase the RCS but by a very small percentage - the bigger contributors of RCS are the missiles/bombs/pylons & not to mention the entire aircraft itself.

Yes, the drag will also increase - again by a very small quantity.

I would suspect the probes are generally made by different materials (has to be very strong) by different vendors, not sure about Rafale itself.