Know Your 'Rafale'

[Bhurki]

Any general idea as to how the offset obligations are to be met? Where does reliance come in?
Does 50% offset mean 50% of the aircraft components by value to be made by india (which could be problematic for time/quality reasons) or to be invested by dassault for other probable projects in future?

 

[Enquirer]

Any general idea as to how the offset obligations are to be met? Where does reliance come in?
Does 50% offset mean 50% of the aircraft components by value to be made by india (which could be problematic for time/quality reasons) or to be invested by dassault for other probable projects in future?

The offsets can be totally unrelated to the tendered project.
No Reliance made part is going into the Rafale fighter aircraft, but into a business jet!

 

[Bhurki]

The offsets can be totally unrelated to the tendered project.
No Reliance made part is going into the Rafale fighter aircraft, but into a business jet!

So probable projects in future? Or else what order would they fulfill when they spend Eur 4 bn back into india(production wise).
There might be a corruption angle emerging when Dassaut has decided to choose a clean sheet defense contractor with no expertise or prior talent to bear its offset capabilites.
How would it be justified if Reliance uses this tech to create future products that adds to its business when people invested over at public dsu burn through cash and get no results?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

So probable projects in future? Or else what order would they fulfill when they spend Eur 4 bn back into india(production wise).
There might be a corruption angle emerging when Dassaut has decided to choose a clean sheet defense contractor with no expertise or prior talent to bear its offset capabilites.
How would it be justified if Reliance uses this tech to create future products that adds to its business when people invested over at public dsu burn through cash and get no results?

That is because the whole plan is to get new capability in private sector. It is specific privatisation goals as the previous PSU culture is being considered as a mistake

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

So probable projects in future? Or else what order would they fulfill when they spend Eur 4 bn back into india(production wise).
There might be a corruption angle emerging when Dassaut has decided to choose a clean sheet defense contractor with no expertise or prior talent to bear its offset capabilites.
How would it be justified if Reliance uses this tech to create future products that adds to its business when people invested over at public dsu burn through cash and get no results?

That is because the whole plan is to get new capability in private sector. It is specific privatisation goals as the previous PSU culture is being considered as a mistake

 

[BON PLAN]

Why would Spain try to attack France? What was the context?

an exercise. I doubt the AMRAAM was locked before firing...

 

[BON PLAN]

I heard rumour that Indian govt might select 110 Eurofighter Typhoon. Indian govt asked for nuclear capable Eurofighter Typhoon but Germany and Britain refused but Spain and Italy agreed for it. I think these 36 Rafale is for Nuclear Stragetic command. I saw a Indian member post about this in Pakistan Defence Forum. The source is close to BJP and RSS. He also deleted the post. Some thing fishy is going.

Full BS.
Eurofighter is under Rafale, and with F4 on track it will be even greater.
It's just crazy to think that you will ordered EF after paying so much for the fixed costs of Rafale. It's just a rumor.

 

[BON PLAN]

A single Rafale can carry

2 fuel tanks
2 x BVR missiles
2 x WVR missiles
Up to 6 x 500lb LGBs

for basic CAS roles.

You need 2 to 3 LCAs to carry only the bombs, with additional LCAs in escort configs, because LCA can't carry 4 x AAMs in strike configs.

Don't just claim things, just to disagree, at least look up the official ADA mission configs to understand what it can do.

Rafale config :
3 fuel tanks + 2 Meteor + 4 MICA + 6 guided 250kg bombs or 2 SCALP missiles.

 

[BON PLAN]

How did Rafale get 12 hardpoints? I a surprised at your numbers

2 on end wings,
3 under each wings (2 able to receive tanks) = total = 6
2 on side of frame (rear)
2 (only 1 opened so far) under the frame.
2 on air intake side (for laser pod...)
TOTAL = 13 to 14.

 

[Sancho]

Five words for you -

Eurofighter Will Never Beat Rafale.

Four words for you - Try to understand the topic!

They are discussing the Rafale deal, not which fighter is better or should have won MMRCA. So instead of understanding what you commenting on, you made a pointless statement, without any merit. Well done :biggrin2:

 

[vampyrbladez]

Four words for you - Try to understand the topic!

They are discussing the Rafale deal, not which fighter is better or should have won MMRCA. So instead of understanding what you commenting on, you made a pointless statement, without any merit. Well done :biggrin2:

Rafale deal is a G2G deal. In that case corruption is 0 as there is no middleman. Even in offset allocation OEM is free to choose who they want to.

Congis have no poll plank this election.No corruption, national security, economy and civil unrest to play on. That's why this pathetic excuse of an allegation is all they could come up with.

 

[Sancho]

you asked me what kaveri engine offsets selection has to do with MMRCA ?

Exactly, that's even written in the part you quoted from me, so there is no confusion on my side, just that you have no idea why you brought it up and now desperately trying to link it with other unrelated stuff.

Same logic applies to MMRCA too, every aircrafts requires mid life upgrades. India will upgrade MKI in any case, so it's nonsense argument.

No it's not, because it's not about the cost of future upgrades, but to compare costs of fighters with equal capabilities!
You just are trying to run away from the fact, that the procurement cost for an MKI with AESA, latest EW and avionics will be far higher, than the costs we paid so far and that destroys your "argument" of MKI being cost-effective.

Finally, you admit that its as the capability as that of mmrca.

Loooool read the part you quoted again. Poor try, but understandable by the lack of arguments.

Even rafales have high operational costs as same logic applies there as well. Don't tell me that opertional cost of mmrca/rafales are cheap.

They are lower than for heavy class fighters and the single engine fighters in the mix have the lowest operational costs. The whole point of adding lifecycle costs to the MMRCA, was to include operational costs as a factor, not just to have the lowest procurement costs.

14 billion deal was base price of rafale aircraft's which does not inculde cost of spares, airbase -infra, customization and weapons

So you are saying Parrikar was lying?

 

[Sancho]

Rafale deal is a G2G deal...

I accept your apology, next time don't rush into commenting on things, before you know what you are talking about.

 

[Sancho]

Just stop spamming with outright lies and repeating the same thing over and over again in a cycle.

Just because you have no clue what you are talking about, doesn't mean that that he same applies to everybody. You don't even know how many weapon stations the fighters have and now are trying to understand something as complex as procurement costs of fighters, flyaway and system costs, economy of scale...
Sorry buddy, but try to inform yourself on basics and don't get involved in topics, that you have no idea about.

 

[Sancho]

as per his figures on rafale

And the usual lack of knowledge of darshan978

April 13, 2015

When asked about the remaining 90 Rafale fighters as the earlier Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal was for 126 planes, Parrikar said that Rafale is a costly fighter plane and for 126 planes the total deal will be of Rs 90,000 crore. As far as Make In India is concerned, both the governments will discuss when the deal is finalised, Parrikar said.

https://www.news18.com/amp/news/pol...fale-jets-says-its-good-for-india-981723.html

That's the figure the then acting NDA defence minister, who negotiated with Dassault for the MMRCA deal, gave on the cost of 126 Rafales! There is no more valid source than him on that matter, which is why that figure is the most credible one we have in public for the total MMRCA Rafale cost.

Now if you belive Parrikar or not is up to you, but you can't deny the figure given by him!

 

[Sancho]

Any general idea as to how the offset obligations are to be met? Where does reliance come in?
Does 50% offset mean 50% of the aircraft components by value to be made by india (which could be problematic for time/quality reasons) or to be invested by dassault for other probable projects in future?

What we know so far, is that Dassault plans to build Falcon 2000 business jet parts and assembly of the aircraft at DRAL.
Thales plans to integrate and maintain radar and avionics at DRAL, after they produced most of them in France.
Offsets are calculated by the value of the deal and neither have to be of the product we procure, nor of the defence sector at all. Just as it doesn't have to be production based, but can be services like maintenance as well.

 

[Prashant12]

Exactly, that's even written in the part you quoted from me, so there is no confusion on my side.

Yes there is confusion on your side. You refuse accept that UPA rejected to accept revival kaveri engine offer. While NDA has revived the same offer.

No it's not, because it's not about the cost of future upgrades, but to compare costs of fighters with equal capabilities!

Nonsense!
MKI will be upgraded and negotiation has already underway.

You just are trying to run away from the fact

What fact ?

that the procurement cost for an MKI with AESA, latest EW and avionics will be far higher, than the costs we paid so far and

far higher than what ?

that destroys your "argument" of MKI being cost-effective.

MKI currently under production and ordering more MKI makes sense, since tot already available with hal.

Poor try, but understandable by the lack of arguments

Indeed poor try by you, justifying 28-30 billion on 4th gen jets.

They are lower than for heavy class fighters

Rafale jets also have high operational costs. Stop lying.

The whole point of adding lifecycle costs to the MMRCA, was to include operational costs as a factor, not just to have the lowest procurement costs.

Life cycle costs does not include upgrade costs. Also IAF originally wanted 126 Mirage 2000 which was sabotaged by congress.

So you are saying Parrikar was lying?

Parrikar was referring about basic aircraft price.

 

[Prashant12]

And the usual lack of knowledge of darshan978


https://www.news18.com/amp/news/pol...fale-jets-says-its-good-for-india-981723.html

That's the figure the then acting NDA defence minister, who negotiated with Dassault for the MMRCA deal, gave on the cost of 126 Rafales! There is no more valid source than him on that matter, which is why that figure is the most credible one we have in public for the total MMRCA Rafale cost.

Now if you belive Parrikar or not is up to you, but you can't deny the figure given by him!

Parrikar was referring about basic aircraft price. The true cost of 126 rafale with all weapons, tot is 28-30 billion.

India’s biggest deal of procuring 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore) has hit rough weather. Two years after French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation bagged the deal for its Rafale fighter jets on account of being the lowest bidder, its cost has now shot up by 100 per cent.

In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). A top defence ministry official said the price of a fighter jet made by Dassault could now cost $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore).

The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore),” said an Indian Air Force (IAF) official, who is privy to discussions of the cost negotiation committee.

https://www.dnaindia.com/india/repo...ikely-to-dent-iaf-s-strike-capability-1957107

 

[Sancho]

You refuse accept that UPA rejected to accept revival kaveri engine offer. While NDA has revived the same offer.

Finally you admit the truth, why you brought it up! Kaveri has no relation to MMRCA, you only tried to point that it was rejected, to link it to the offsets of the Rafale deal as a win for NDA.

That however is not only proving my point, that you randomly post unrelated stuff, to "act" as if you have a proof or a source for something, but it also proves that you don't know what you are talking about!

It was IAF that rejected the Kaveri / Snecma offer for LCA, because they had doubts on the promised thrust of the engine and wanted to use available engines to fasten the MK2 development, just as it was DRDO, who told Safran to divert offsets into Kaveri revival, as part of the offsets.

So you are completely wrong on any relation of Kaveri and MMRCA, just as that there was any politics involved!
DRDO would have told Safran the same, if the MMRCA Rafale deal had been signed, no matter if it was under UPA or NDA, because getting help for their Kaveri engine was a priority for them!

 

[Prashant12]

Finally you admit the truth, why you brought it up! Kaveri has no relation to MMRCA, you only tried to point that it was rejected, to link it to the offsets of the Rafale deal as a ein..

LOL, Check Post 14222

The same had been the case for a Rafale MMRCA deal, because Kaveri revival is part of the offsets

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-712#post-1447801

That however is not only proving my point, that you randomly post unrelated stuff, to "act" as if you have a proof or a source for something, but it also proves that you don't know what you are talking about!

I posted facts with source

https://www.dnaindia.com/india/repo...ikely-to-dent-iaf-s-strike-capability-1957107

It was IAF that rejected the Kaveri / Snecma offer

Because UPA never supported it.

DRDO would have told Safran the same, if the MMRCA Rafale deal had been signed, no matter if it was under UPA or NDA.

Now you randomly post without any proof.