Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

How come? IN ordered P8 in 2009, Airbus MPA has no firm orders in 2018 and it is still on the drawing board with no first flight in sight. So either Airbus is having technical dificulties or is waiting France and Germany or any other customer like India for example to pony up the development costs. Either way, bad option for India and probably bad for France and Germany too.

P8 is a much bigger program backed by US Navy. I am pretty sure that qualifies as a major advantage in itself, atleast for India.

The A319 being offered is a shortened version of the A320 which will soon be the most produced jet aircraft in history. There is not much development risk on it.

Boeing is offering support for additional cost. Airbus MPA doesn't exist.

Saab has been trying to do the exact same thing. A more cost effective but then non existent Gripen E vs proven Rafale which was flying in 100s.

India made right choice in both cases.

The cost of support was not required in their bid for L1 while Airbus was required. The A320neo family is cheaper to operate than the 737ng and they knew it. The basis of their selection was L1 which was tampered with.

 

[sthf]

The A319 being offered is a shortened version of the A320 which will soon be the most produced jet aircraft in history. There is not much development risk on it.

Nimrod MR4 disagrees with you.

The cost of support was not required in their bid for L1 while Airbus was required. The A320neo family is cheaper to operate than the 737ng and they knew it. The basis of their selection was L1 which was tampered with.

Yes and why does it actually matters. One exists and the other doesn't.

CAG is an auditor and it looked for holes in the balancesheets, found one and its job is done. Its not their job to judge the product's capabilities nor are they capable of doing so.

IN chose what is single handedly the most capable ASW aircraft in history and for once Congress and Saint Anthony didn't hide their ineptitude behind the garb of single vendor situation.

 

[Armand2REP]

Nimrod MR4 disagrees with you.

What does Nimrod have to do with Airbus?

Yes and why does it actually matters. One exists and the other doesn't.

The A319 exists, you just have to fit the crap to it. Not much risk there.

CAG is an auditor and it looked for holes in the balancesheets, found one and its job is done. Its not their job to judge the product's capabilities nor are they capable of doing so.

CAG looks for corruption, it looks like they found it with the Americans. Cong is going to pay for this in the polls.

 

[Jackd]

CAG looks for corruption, it looks like they found it with the Americans. Cong is going to pay for this in the polls.

CAG - Comptroller and Auditor general of India. It's primary job is auditing accounts of the government, PSUs etc. It doesn't actively look for corruption in deals.

 

[Armand2REP]

CAG - Comptroller and Auditor general of India. It's primary job is auditing accounts of the government, PSUs etc. It doesn't actively look for corruption in deals.

It's primary job is auditing accounts of the government... for what purpose? They are not there to twiddle their thumbs.

 

[sthf]

What does Nimrod have to do with Airbus?

Allow me to expand on that. The reason Nimrod MRA4 began as a program because BAE decided that it is easier to rebuild and upgrade existing Nimrods to a new standards than it is convert A310 into an MPA.

They underestimated the risks involved and the result is for all to see. Sounds familiar?

The A319 exists, you just have to fit the crap to it. Not much risk there

Had that been the case there would have been dozens of these flying around. So far, not a single prototype in 10 years.

CAG looks for corruption, it looks like they found it with the Americans. Cong is going to pay for this in the polls.

CAG looks for irregularities. ED & CBI look for corruption. These irregularities often stems from failure to follow procedure, incompetence, ineptitude not necessariliy from corruption.

For example, if come tomorrow US offers F-22 production in India with 100% TOT and India accepts, CAG will still raise questions about single vendor situation, extent of TOT provided, TOT absorbed, availability rates etc. The strategic value of such a deal has no bearing on CAG's audit, only monetary value does.

This "scam" is the least of Congress' problems. They have a president who makes Trump look like a stable genius and that is saying something.

 

[Armand2REP]

Allow me to expand on that. The reason Nimrod MRA4 began as a program because BAE decided that it is easier to rebuild and upgrade existing Nimrods to a new standards than it is convert A310 into an MPA.

They underestimated the risks involved and the result is for all to see. Sounds familiar?

That isn't why they began Nimrod MRA4. They began it because they wanted to maintain their indigenous aircraft production capabilities. They realised that the aircraft was indeed obsolete and not fit for purpose in the 21st century so they cancelled it.

Had that been the case there would have been dozens of these flying around. So far, not a single prototype in 10 years.

You are confusing the declining era of European defence budgets with an expensive airliner turned MPA. These nations didn't have the money to buy billions worth of MPA, just second hand P-3 Orions and in the French case renovating the old ATL2s. The point at which Europe needs a common MPA is soon approaching and in which will have orders for the Airbus MPA. It was going to be built regardless.

[This "scam" is the least of Congress' problems. They have a president who makes Trump look like a stable genius and that is saying something.

It actually makes Rahul look like a hypocrite when he has nothing on Rafale but there is a big discrepancy for the P-8I.

 

[WolfPack86]

Dassault Rafale's Weapon Load-Out : > 2x Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missiles > 2x MICA IR Air-to-Air Missile > 2x MICA EM Air-to-Air Missile > 6x AASM "Hammer" > 3x 2000l Drop Tanks

 

[WolfPack86]

I heard rumour that Indian govt might select 110 Eurofighter Typhoon. Indian govt asked for nuclear capable Eurofighter Typhoon but Germany and Britain refused but Spain and Italy agreed for it. I think these 36 Rafale is for Nuclear Stragetic command. I saw a Indian member post about this in Pakistan Defence Forum. The source is close to BJP and RSS. He also deleted the post. Some thing fishy is going.

 

[Foff-Merceneries]

You really think that a person who is close to ruling government with access to such data is posting it on Internet and social media forums???

Sent from my Coolpad 3600I using Tapatalk

 

[lcafanboy]

I heard rumour that Indian govt might select 110 Eurofighter Typhoon. Indian govt asked for nuclear capable Eurofighter Typhoon but Germany and Britain refused but Spain and Italy agreed for it. I think these 36 Rafale is for Nuclear Stragetic command. I saw a Indian member post about this in Pakistan Defence Forum. The source is close to BJP and RSS. He also deleted the post. Some thing fishy is going.

Eurofighter typhoon is not coming. There's an old saying MANY COOKS SPOIL THE DISH. And eurofighter typhoon is a spoilt dish prepared by many cooks and govt of India won't even touch it. Only Rafales will come but govt wants to assure that French deliver offset read engine technology first. French promised kaveri engine will fly and will be certified for fighter integration in 3yrs once it's done Rafales will come in huge numbers...

 

[Sancho]

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[Sancho]

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[Kay]

The Rafale deal would have been much more palatable if HAL was there and Reliance was not around. Now, both France and Modi have to make sure Kaveri flies - for their own reasons - which is all good. MMRCA 2.0 is just a cover for more Rafales - IAF won't buy anything else as it makes no sense.

 

[Sancho]

The Rafale deal would have been much more palatable if HAL was there and Reliance was not around.

HAL is not the issue, because that's just a political point, that serves Congress's agenda and the government as well as Dassault will make sure, that HAL will get some parts of the offsets.

What made the deal so bad was, that the PM made several unilateral decisions, without taking IAFs operational requirements to account, in a single vendor give away deal and losing all the industrial, technological and job creation advantages, the MMRCA was meant to bring India.

The government only had to do, what they did in the LUH tender and nobody could complain!

- cancel the original tender
- re-issue it, without HAL as the lead integrator (SPM)
- select a winner from the shortlisted proposals, under a G2G deal, for the required numbers of aircrafts, with a licence production and credible ToT

It still would be a political deal, but at least we would have got, what we wanted and needed in a clean deal. Not to mention that the government could had shown some consistency in their policies.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

HAL is not the issue, because that's just a political point, that serves Congress's agenda and the government as well as Dassault will make sure, that HAL will get some parts of the offsets.

What made the deal so bad was, that the PM made several unilateral decisions, without taking IAFs operational requirements to account, in a single vendor give away deal and losing all the industrial, technological and job creation advantages, the MMRCA was meant to bring India.

The government only had to do, what they did in the LUH tender and nobody could complain!

- cancel the original tender
- re-issue it, without HAL as the lead integrator (SPM)
- select a winner from the shortlisted proposals, under a G2G deal, for the required numbers of aircrafts, with a licence production and credible ToT

It still would be a political deal, but at least we would have got, what we wanted and needed in a clean deal. Not to mention that the government could had shown some consistency in their policies.

That does not account for time lost. Unless there is a way to get back the time, there is no point. Also, Typhoon has UK as main player which is politically bad. It is worse than buying from China

 

[Sancho]

Maybe the best summary of the Rafale deal and the issues around it!

RAFALE COCKTAIL CONTINUES TO FOX US
Wednesday, 15 August 2018 | Ashok K Mehta

(The writer is a retired Major General of the Indian Army and founder member of the Defence Planning Staff, currently the revamped Integrated Defence Staff)

https://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/edit/rafale-cocktail-continues-to-fox-us.html

The dogfight between the Government and the Opposition over the acquisition of 126 versus 36 Rafale fighters is not going to end anytime soon. The brewing scandal will become a poll issue. The main reasons for alleged irregularities are the neglect of the Defence Ministry — despite the fear of financial impropriety — and Prime Minister Narendra Modi who monitors every other department of the Government scrupulously. Nirmala Sitharaman being the fourth Defence Minister in as many years, is the cause of inconsistencies and delays in decision-making. ...

...Prime Minister Modi to announce in Paris on April 10, 2015, his intent to order, for operational reasons in a new contract, 36 Rafales in flyaway condition. Only National Security Advisor Ajit Doval was involved in this decision. The then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was brought in at the 11th hour. Even Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha was merely consulted...

...The real mystery is: Why the original project of 126 Rafales — 18 in flyaway condition and 108 for Make in India — did not materialise between Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronauticals Limited (HAL)? In between what was lost was transfer of technology, Make in India, bigger offsets and significantly, four additional squadrons of Rafale. ...

...It will be worth enquiring how the 126 Rafale project was axed with associated deprivations principally on factor of cost. The flip-flop on Rs 59,000 crore cost of 36 Rafale is hilarious. On November 17, 2017, newly minted Sitharaman, at a Press conference confidently directed Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra to disclose details of the cost. That never happened.

On February 5, 2018, she informed the Rajya Sabha that the price could not be revealed due to a confidentiality clause from a secrecy agreement signed by the UPA Government in January 2008, whose longevity was 10 years. After junior Minister Suresh Bhamre twice revealed in Parliament and Ministry of Defence officials’ off-the-record briefing for media on costs and India-specific enhancements, it was disingenuous on Sitharaman’s part to bandy an expired secrecy agreement during the July 10 no-confidence motion in Parliament. It is abundantly clear that the secrecy clause covered only technical and operational parameters, not the cost. ...

...Due process was violated. A serving CAG official and a former Secretary, Defence Finance explained to me the impropriety of Modi’s provisional contractual announcement in Paris. The 126 Rafale contract under negotiation was guillotined and L2 Eurofighter Typhoon (which was actually L1 — mystery number three) was excluded from the new contract, making the single-vendor purchase non-competitive. Legal and technical issues are riddled in this contract. The DPP-mandated approvals were taken only before the contract was signed. Defence offsets worth Rs 30,000 crore are to be ploughed back as per DPP. ...

...Cost of contract and alleged fraud are political chaff. The 36 instead of 126 Rafale contract has seriously imperiled the combat capability of the IAF given the non-performance of LCA. The wheel was reinvented with tenders sought for MMRCA 2.0 for 110 fighters. ...

...Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa said that the authorised combat strength of 42 squadrons will be reached by 2032. Inconsistencies in forecast are a direct consequence of Government’s whimsical decision-making, question marks over LCA and discarding IAF’s Long Term Equipment Plan. ...

...The 36 Rafale contract killing the one for 126 fighters was a strategic error of judgment on Modi’s part. ...

 

[Prashant12]

Fact Check: Rahul Gandhi changed price of Rafale aircraft 4 times in 5 months

The cost of Rafale deal has become one of the most debated topics ever since the Congress used it to target the NDA regime. But the big question is, what was the actual price of each Rafale aircraft during the UPA regime?

Even Congress president Rahul Gandhi, who on numerous occasions quoted different prices, is visibly oblivious to the actual cost of the fighter plane under the UPA government.


In the past five months, the Congress president in various public meetings has quoted four different prices for Rafale aircraft during UPA government.

While the Congress party is trying to corner Narendra Modi government over the Rafale aircraft deal by calling it the biggest scam in the last four years, Rahul's wide swing over the prices comes as an embarrassment for the Grand Old Party.

To throw light on the inconsistency and twisting of facts, India Today's Fact Check team has tracked Rahul Gandhi's speeches from April 2018.

Rahul compared the prices of the Rafale aircraft for the first time on April 29 at Jan Akrosh Rally in New Delhi. The Gandhi scion made the comparison in an attempt to show how the price of each aircraft escalated under the Prime Minister Narendra Modi government.

"When Manmohan Singh was prime minister each Rafale aircraft would cost Rs 700 crore," said Rahul Gandhi.

"But Narendra Modi went to France and the price of each aircraft became Rs 1,500 crore.It just becomes double right away," he added.

Rahul went on to reiterate the same figures for the next two months. On May 3, during a rally in Karnataka's Bidar, Rahul mentioned the same prices.


In the above video (between 35:25 to 36:50), Rahul Gandhi can be seen saying, "During UP the price of a Rafale aircraft was Rs 700 crore, Modiji changed it to Rs 1,500 crore per aircraft.

On July 20, in his landmark speech during the no confidence motion against Modi government in Lok Sabha, he attacked Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman on Rafale deal.

Here, for the first time he announced that during the UPA rule, the cost of each Rafale plane was Rs 520 crore and after Modi's visit to France it shot up to Rs 1,600 crore.

The UPA price scaled down from Rs 700 crore to Rs 520 crore and NDA price scaled up by Rs 100 crore.

July 20, Rahul Gandhi in Parliament -No confidence motion speech in Lok Sabha.


In less than three weeks from his speech in the Parliament, Rahul Gandhi in a public rally in Raipur reminded the people about the speech and quoted a different figure for each Rafale aircraft.

This time his cost for each Rafale aircraft during the UPA rule increased by Rs 20 crore, from Rs 520 crore to Rs 540 crore.


The most amazing flip-flop over Rafale prices came from the Congress president on August 11. Within just two minutes he quoted two different prices - Rs 520 crore and Rs 540 for each aircraft.

But before you settle between Rs 520 crore and Rs 540 crore, Gandhi came out with another new figure for Rafale aircraft. This time it is Rs 526 crore for each aircraft. In both the rallies - in Bidar and Hyderabad - he quoted the same figure.

On August 13, Rahul Gandhi while speaking at a rally in Hyderabad said, "I asked him (PM Modi) in Parliament, Modiji how did the price of Rafale aircraft escalate from Rs 526 crore to Rs 1,600 crore. But Modi ji did not reply."


https://www.indiatoday.in/fact-chec...rcraft-4-times-in-5-months-1314622-2018-08-14

 

[Armand2REP]

It is time for the Gandhi's to retire from politics. If they make up prices for Rafale how do you expect them to run the economy?

 

[Kay]

Maybe the best summary of the Rafale deal and the issues around it!



https://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/edit/rafale-cocktail-continues-to-fox-us.html

The dogfight between the Government and the Opposition over the acquisition of 126 versus 36 Rafale fighters is not going to end anytime soon. The brewing scandal will become a poll issue. The main reasons for alleged irregularities are the neglect of the Defence Ministry — despite the fear of financial impropriety — and Prime Minister Narendra Modi who monitors every other department of the Government scrupulously. Nirmala Sitharaman being the fourth Defence Minister in as many years, is the cause of inconsistencies and delays in decision-making. ...

...Prime Minister Modi to announce in Paris on April 10, 2015, his intent to order, for operational reasons in a new contract, 36 Rafales in flyaway condition. Only National Security Advisor Ajit Doval was involved in this decision. The then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was brought in at the 11th hour. Even Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha was merely consulted...

...The real mystery is: Why the original project of 126 Rafales — 18 in flyaway condition and 108 for Make in India — did not materialise between Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronauticals Limited (HAL)? In between what was lost was transfer of technology, Make in India, bigger offsets and significantly, four additional squadrons of Rafale. ...

...It will be worth enquiring how the 126 Rafale project was axed with associated deprivations principally on factor of cost. The flip-flop on Rs 59,000 crore cost of 36 Rafale is hilarious. On November 17, 2017, newly minted Sitharaman, at a Press conference confidently directed Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra to disclose details of the cost. That never happened.

On February 5, 2018, she informed the Rajya Sabha that the price could not be revealed due to a confidentiality clause from a secrecy agreement signed by the UPA Government in January 2008, whose longevity was 10 years. After junior Minister Suresh Bhamre twice revealed in Parliament and Ministry of Defence officials’ off-the-record briefing for media on costs and India-specific enhancements, it was disingenuous on Sitharaman’s part to bandy an expired secrecy agreement during the July 10 no-confidence motion in Parliament. It is abundantly clear that the secrecy clause covered only technical and operational parameters, not the cost. ...

...Due process was violated. A serving CAG official and a former Secretary, Defence Finance explained to me the impropriety of Modi’s provisional contractual announcement in Paris. The 126 Rafale contract under negotiation was guillotined and L2 Eurofighter Typhoon (which was actually L1 — mystery number three) was excluded from the new contract, making the single-vendor purchase non-competitive. Legal and technical issues are riddled in this contract. The DPP-mandated approvals were taken only before the contract was signed. Defence offsets worth Rs 30,000 crore are to be ploughed back as per DPP. ...

...Cost of contract and alleged fraud are political chaff. The 36 instead of 126 Rafale contract has seriously imperiled the combat capability of the IAF given the non-performance of LCA. The wheel was reinvented with tenders sought for MMRCA 2.0 for 110 fighters. ...

...Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa said that the authorised combat strength of 42 squadrons will be reached by 2032. Inconsistencies in forecast are a direct consequence of Government’s whimsical decision-making, question marks over LCA and discarding IAF’s Long Term Equipment Plan. ...

...The 36 Rafale contract killing the one for 126 fighters was a strategic error of judgment on Modi’s part. ...

Paid article by lobbysts - "non performance of the LCA" - no need to read anything beyond that.
The only real help we needed was with engine tech - we got that - so the deal served it's purpose.
If Kaveri flies - we can order additional Rafales provided we get to integrate Meteor with Tejas.
Any additional glorified tech transfer is secondary - nothing outside our reach.
Rafale is a very capable plane - it's good that we have them. How many do we actually need is the question. No need to buy more than we actually need.
TOT is a myth - no one gives it unless it is outdated. Our money is best spent on our local RnD than funding RnD for next European plane.