Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

Have you forgoten than there is 2 hard poins under each Rafale wing?

Exactly, just as I said and as we all know, 2 is less than 4. :biggrin2:

 

[Immanuel]

The problem with the Rafale was not the aircraft but how it's cost was estimated during MMRCA and how it ended up as L-1 while it clearly wasn't. UPA couldn't conclude the MMRCA due to significant rise in total costs of ownership inlcuding TOT all the while Dassault's attack on HAL which apparently can perfectly put MKIs (that run circles around the Rafale) together while making the Super Modern Rafale by them was akin to a blind man putting his cock in the right hole. Modi made a mistake by not making it a competitive thing between EF Consortium and Dassault. Instead a G2G deal on a non exitant requirement of 36 aircraft and a single vendor chat. Why the waste of time if the idea was to fill the 126 MRCA need at a lower cost, why didn't they drop the full TOT clause, decrease the amount of local content and have a good old fashion competitive brawl between EF and Dassault.

Now it is perfectly fine that Reliance without a shred of history making anything in the world of aviation supposedly can do a perfect job of putting these dainty French dolls together.

It won't cost them the election but with a rather sad budget at the moment, having 36 more for now is a distant dream. Knowing IAF, they'll probably order another 18-36 more while the line is about to close some time mid next decade at a significantly higher price because of last minute shit as always.

 

[Armand2REP]

The problem with the Rafale was not the aircraft but how it's cost was estimated during MMRCA and how it ended up as L-1 while it clearly wasn't. UPA couldn't conclude the MMRCA due to significant rise in total costs of ownership inlcuding TOT all the while Dassault's attack on HAL which apparently can perfectly put MKIs (that run circles around the Rafale) together while making the Super Modern Rafale by them was akin to a blind man putting his cock in the right hole. Modi made a mistake by not making it a competitive thing between EF Consortium and Dassault. Instead a G2G deal on a non exitant requirement of 36 aircraft and a single vendor chat. Why the waste of time if the idea was to fill the 126 MRCA need at a lower cost, why didn't they drop the full TOT clause, decrease the amount of local content and have a good old fashion competitive brawl between EF and Dassault.

Now it is perfectly fine that Reliance without a shred of history making anything in the world of aviation supposedly can do a perfect job of putting these dainty French dolls together.

It won't cost them the election but with a rather sad budget at the moment, having 36 more for now is a distant dream. Knowing IAF, they'll probably order another 18-36 more while the line is about to close some time mid next decade at a significantly higher price because of last minute shit as always.

It is pretty clear that it was L1. Airbus just got sued by Austria for $99 million for lying about EFs operational costs and they will be dumping them on the open market because they are too expensive to use. Just to operate 15 costs €5 billion in maintenance over 30 years. Going with Rafale would have saved €1.5 billion much less the cheaper fly away cost.

UPA never received a final price to compare so all of these allegations are baseless. All one has to do is to compare the Qatar deal between the two for the same number. $7 billion for 24 Rafale and $8 billion for 24 Eurofighter is $1 billion upfront savings. The more you add the more that savings increases and the maintenance cost of Typhoon is so astronomical as the Austrians found out, it isn't worth keeping. Much like the RAF is ditching their twin seaters already. Same reason Germany is cannibalising its fleet.

 

[smestarz]

The 36 dolls will come from France,
I am not sure reliance will put in much content in Indian Rafale at least

The problem with the Rafale was not the aircraft but how it's cost was estimated during MMRCA and how it ended up as L-1 while it clearly wasn't. UPA couldn't conclude the MMRCA due to significant rise in total costs of ownership inlcuding TOT all the while Dassault's attack on HAL which apparently can perfectly put MKIs (that run circles around the Rafale) together while making the Super Modern Rafale by them was akin to a blind man putting his cock in the right hole. Modi made a mistake by not making it a competitive thing between EF Consortium and Dassault. Instead a G2G deal on a non exitant requirement of 36 aircraft and a single vendor chat. Why the waste of time if the idea was to fill the 126 MRCA need at a lower cost, why didn't they drop the full TOT clause, decrease the amount of local content and have a good old fashion competitive brawl between EF and Dassault.

Now it is perfectly fine that Reliance without a shred of history making anything in the world of aviation supposedly can do a perfect job of putting these dainty French dolls together.

It won't cost them the election but with a rather sad budget at the moment, having 36 more for now is a distant dream. Knowing IAF, they'll probably order another 18-36 more while the line is about to close some time mid next decade at a significantly higher price because of last minute shit as always.

 

[WolfPack86]

Some body must shut up Rahul Gandhi mouth he is keep on repeating Rafale scam. It is very irritating to me.

 

[Immanuel]

It is pretty clear that it was L1. Airbus just got sued by Austria for $99 million for lying about EFs operational costs and they will be dumping them on the open market because they are too expensive to use. Just to operate 15 costs €5 billion in maintenance over 30 years. Going with Rafale would have saved €1.5 billion much less the cheaper fly away cost.

UPA never received a final price to compare so all of these allegations are baseless. All one has to do is to compare the Qatar deal between the two for the same number. $7 billion for 24 Rafale and $8 billion for 24 Eurofighter is $1 billion upfront savings. The more you add the more that savings increases and the maintenance cost of Typhoon is so astronomical as the Austrians found out, it isn't worth keeping. Much like the RAF is ditching their twin seaters already. Same reason Germany is cannibalising its fleet.

Well I never said EF Consortium isn't crookish in it's dealings, I am saying Dassault is crookish too just the same. To say Rafale is L-1 after the long protracted discussion going on for over 3 years leading to the entire process being cancelled is lunacy. Dassault is akin to a hooker with bad marketing.

But it's ok you're a French poodle, you're allowed your dillusions.

 

[Immanuel]

The 36 dolls will come from France,
I am not sure reliance will put in much content in Indian Rafale at least

Well they will make somethings, nuts and bolts, piss resepticles etc.

 

[Immanuel]

Some body must shut up Rahul Gandhi mouth he is keep on repeating Rafale scam. It is very irritating to me.

Well he certainly knows it's a scam, they were involved in it first, now they washed their hands off it and putting it on Modi, it's like passing the parcel.

 

[BON PLAN]

Exactly, just as I said and as we all know, 2 is less than 4. :biggrin2:

2 hard points under EACH wing.
As Rafale has 2 wings , 2 x 2 = 4 !

 

[BON PLAN]

how it's cost was estimated during MMRCA and how it ended up as L-1 while it clearly wasn't.

It's the opinion of peoples non involved in.
Only Politicians bla bla.

 

[smestarz]

actually UPA were all prepared to get into a scam except that AK Anthony did not want his name to be involved
Had MMS been the defence minister, the same Rafale deal would have cost os close to 45 billion dollars for planes, weapons, make in india etc

Some body must shut up Rahul Gandhi mouth he is keep on repeating Rafale scam. It is very irritating to me.

 

[smestarz]

DRAL is Dassault and reliance JV. That JV was mainly for the offset obligation but does not mean that product produced in this project would be produced in Indian Rafale.

Dassault Reliance JV was more or less agreed when Rafale was declared L1, rather its said that it was Reliance that ensured that Rafale was selected as L1. Well DRAL will be making something, Perhaps DRAL will be producing the empty space above the wings as contribution

Well they will make somethings, nuts and bolts, piss resepticles etc.

 

[smestarz]

I think of it another way, When the MMRCA was on, there was apparently a deal between Dassault and SG and the money was to be channeled through her sister. Maybe RaGa wants to know how much the deal cost so that he can then ask his aunty to send the invoice to Dassault and ask them to pay for the "service charges"
After all they had worked hard along with NAK Browne for the deal !!!

Well he certainly knows it's a scam, they were involved in it first, now they washed their hands off it and putting it on Modi, it's like passing the parcel.

 

[BON PLAN]

I think of it another way, When the MMRCA was on, there was apparently a deal between Dassault and SG and the money was to be channeled through her sister. Maybe RaGa wants to know how much the deal cost so that he can then ask his aunty to send the invoice to Dassault and ask them to pay for the "service charges"
After all they had worked hard along with NAK Browne for the deal !!!

Sure !

The Rafale was the worst plane of the field test.
So Dassault paid a lot of bribes to be sure to be among the L1 - L2.
After that DA gave a totally incredible low price to be sure to be L1.
And when declared L1, they made all their best to sabotage the bargaining (it's usual ! Dassault at those time already had a hand full of customers for his dirty fighter)
And to finisch, they offered a nice villa in the south coast of France to Modi to be sure he inked a deal at a very and incredible high price for 36 planes directly delivered from France (Dassault deeply fucked the MII !!!).

Is it a nice shortcut of your own story of the MMRCA saga ?

 

[Sancho]

2 hard points under EACH wing.
As Rafale has 2 wings , 2 x 2 = 4 !

2 hardpoints for weapons! All your unrelated pics showed just 2 weapons, while the B60 has 4 because it doesn't need to carry wing fuel tanks, thx to CFTs + centerline fuel tank. It's always funny how you put yourself in such situations and the claim complete nonsense to get out of it. Just as you did a few days ago with the EF and anti ship missiles. But looking at paper specs alone and being biased towards Rafale doesn't mean you actually know something about it. You also need to understand how many of the hardpoints it actually can use and which of them can carry which weapons, to understand the real capability.

 

[Sancho]

Some body must shut up Rahul Gandhi mouth he is keep on repeating Rafale scam. It is very irritating to me.

Expect more, Congress would be silly not to use the weakness of the government in this case, especially since the NDA started it, by claiming lower costs. Sitharaman is in a weak spot now, as she can't defend the deal and is on record with statements that makes the government look bad. Not to mention that the silence of the PM, on his own deal, makes it even worse.

All that only comes on top of the dismal performance of the government wrt defence and supporting the forces. Attacking veterans, cutting funds for education children of soldiers, or the insanely low defence budgets, are only recent examples, where the government opened itself up to valid criticism, even spart of the political allegations of Congress.

 

[Sancho]

Sieh dir den Tweet von @scramble_nl an:

 

[BON PLAN]

2 hardpoints for weapons! All your unrelated pics showed just 2 weapons, while the B60 has 4 because it doesn't need to carry wing fuel tanks, thx to CFTs + centerline fuel tank. It's always funny how you put yourself in such situations and the claim complete nonsense to get out of it. Just as you did a few days ago with the EF and anti ship missiles. But looking at paper specs alone and being biased towards Rafale doesn't mean you actually know something about it. You also need to understand how many of the hardpoints it actually can use and which of them can carry which weapons, to understand the real capability.

These 4 hards points can received weapons or tanks. On my pics you can see SCALP or tanks on all. It's only a question of customer needs. If UAE want 4 SCALP, or 4 Exocet, they will have it. And all the Rafale are equipped to receive CFT, but no customer actually takes it because the range is far than enough.

F16 bk60 has the same internal fuel capacity than a bk30, but with a far greedy engine. the CFT is absolutely indispensable to have a decent range. but CFT add drag, which add consumption, which reduce range....
UAE was supposed to take 20 to 30 more. but no order so far. Strange for a so nice (according to you) plane....

 

[BON PLAN]

The 4 x PGM pic of the F16 is like this F15 :

A nice marketing argument.

But never seen in a real action.

 

[Sancho]

India approves JV between Reliance and Thales
15 February 2018

The Competition Commission of India (CCI) has approved the setting up of a joint venture (JV) between Reliance and Thales to support the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) procurement of 36 Dassault Rafale multirole combat aircraft.

In approving the JV, the CCI said in a recently published notice on its website that the new company will be positioned to “fulfil the offsets obligation” under the Rafale contract as well as “ramp up capability” in the country in line with New Delhi’s ‘Make in India’ drive.

The CCI also confirmed that the new JV will be channelled through Reliance subsidiary Reliance Aerostructure Limited (RAL) and Thales’ domestic affiliate Thales India Private Limited.

http://www.janes.com/article/77922/india-approves-jv-between-reliance-and-thales

=>

Recap:

THALES AND RELIANCE DEFENCE LIMITED TO FORM JOINT VENTURE

Paris/ Mumbai, June 21, 2017 : Thales and Reliance Defence Limited announced today their intent to form an Indian Joint Venture (JV) with the proposed shareholding of 49% and 51% respectively.

Leveraging Thales offset commitment as part of Rafale Contract, the JV is to develop Indian capabilities to integrate and maintain Radar and Electronic Warfare sensors. The JV will develop skills and activity in the Special Economic Zone of Mihan-Nagpur together with an Indian supply chain for the manufacturing of microwave technologies and high performance airborne electronics.

Set up with a long term strategy to serve the Indian needs, this partnership between Thales and Reliance Defence Limited will strengthen the Prime Minister Narendra Modi “Make in India” vision.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worl...d-reliance-defence-limited-form-joint-venture