Know Your 'Rafale'

asianobserve

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The projected cost of F35 was 65 $ million....

F35 in its infancy? 10 years after the first flight of the pre serial one? You are pulling my leg Bro.

For 10 bugs they are corrected, 12 are coming.

The main difference between Rafale and F35 is : one is operationnal, day after day, the other not. And FOC of the F35 is postponed month after month. It's not on real duty that LM speak of af new engine ... what a master piece !

$65M? Even a spruced up 4th gen Gripen E is already $70M at flyaway cost. The F-35 is a 5th gen multirole fighter that is an overmatch to all existing 4th or so called 4.5th gen fighters out there.

Need I tell the story of Rafale's own development..? From 1984 to FOC in 2004! How long is that again?

The only bug that's concerning here is Rafale's already old design.

Of course Rafale is operational, it should be because it took Dassault 22 long years at least to get to that level! And that's for a design that was first conceived in the late 1970's! During that time I assume you were still doing this?



:bplease:
 
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BON PLAN

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$65M? Even a spruced up 4th gen Gripen E is already $70M at flyaway cost. The F-35 is a 5th gen multirole fighter that is an overmatch to all existing 4th or so called 4.5th gen fighters out there.

Need I tell the story of Rafale's own development..? From 1984 to FOC in 2004! How long is that again?

The only bug that's concerning here is Rafale's already old design.

Of course Rafale is operational, it should be because it took Dassault 22 long years at least to get to that level! And that's for a design that was first conceived in the late 1970's! During that time I assume you were still doing this?
The JSF was estimated by LM to 65 $million. 15 years ago.

Overmatch ? For the time, the only thing overmatched by the F35 is the budget.

Don't speak of subject you don't master Bro :
Rafale A, a demonstrator (as F32 and first F35 in the JSF field test were), flown in 1986 (and not 1984).
Rafale C preserial plane flown in 1991. IOC in 2001 (Rafale M F1) => 10 years for IOC Multirole standard in 2004 => 13 years for FOC.

Late 1970 ? You must confuse with Mirage 2000 ..... LOL
 

asianobserve

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The JSF was estimated by LM to 65 $million. 15 years ago.

Overmatch ? For the time, the only thing overmatched by the F35 is the budget.

Don't speak of subject you don't master Bro :
Rafale A, a demonstrator (as F32 and first F35 in the JSF field test were), flown in 1986 (and not 1984).
Rafale C preserial plane flown in 1991. IOC in 2001 (Rafale M F1) => 10 years for IOC Multirole standard in 2004 => 13 years for FOC.

Late 1970 ? You must confuse with Mirage 2000 ..... LOL
IOC of Rafale was 2002 and FOC was 2004. It has been in development for 22 years! There's nothing standard about that.

The design parameters for Rafale were concieved in 1979.
 

asianobserve

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Early Development

Initial studies for an Avion de Combat Tactique (ACT; Tactical Combat Aircraft) started at the French Ministry of Aviation as early as in 1975. At this early stage, the aircraft was to be a prospective supplement to the Mirage 2000, which first flew in 1978. The Mirage 2000 was to be a light fighter in the F-16 class, optimized for air defense and related tasks, while the ACT was to be a heavier and more capable aircraft, optimized for ground attack, reconnaissance, and air superiority. Among the authors of these early requirements, called ACT 92 (1992 was the year of expected service entry), was LtCol Vincent Lanata, later Chief of Staff of the French Air Force.

The UK and Germany initiated an international consortium to develop a future multirole aircraft in 1977. It was even agreed that the aircraft would be a two-engine, single-seat multirole fighter with a delta wing and front horizontal control surfaces (canards). The aerodynamic layout was actually proposed by France, which joined the consortium. However, due to conflicting requirements, cooperation ended in the spring of 1981. Germany wanted to build an air-defense and air-superiority fighter; the UK wanted to build a heavy multirole aircraft with an emphasis on air-to-air missions; while France wanted a lighter multirole fighter with the emphasis on air-to-ground missions. Finally, the common development effort split into the French ACT 92 and the German-British European Combat Fighter (ECF), resulting from the British Air Staff Target (AST) 403 and German Taktisches Kampfflugzeug (TKF) 90 requirements. The ECF finally evolved into the four-nation (with Italy and Spain) Eurofighter Typhoon, and France decided to proceed with ACT 92 on its own.

On Oct. 30, 1978, Avions Marcel Dassault-Breguet (presently Dassault Aviation, Paris, France) received an initial contract for the development of the ACT 92 project, supplemented on December 20 by a contract for its naval version. In 1979, more serious studies about possible configurations of the new aircraft were undertaken by the Office National d'Etudes de Recherches Aeronautiques (ONERA; the National Office for Aviation Studies and Research). The project was conducted under the codename Rapace--bird of prey. In March 1980, Dassault-Breguet started studying four aerodynamic configurations, all with canards and delta wings. Two had a single vertical tail fin, while the others had double vertical fins.

In October 1982, Charles Hernu, the French minister of defense, announced that Dassault-Breguet would build a technology demonstrator called the Avion de Combat Eperimental (ACX; Experimental Combat Aircraft), based on the ACT 92 study. On April 13, 1983, it was decided that the ACX would be built according to the project prepared at Dassault Technical Department and headed by Bruno Revellin-Falcoz. The design team was led by Jean-Jacques Samin and Claude Hironde. The Dassault-Breguet proposal was prepared in close cooperation with ONERA, the Ministry of the Air Force, and the Delegation Generale pour l'Armement (DGA; France's top military-procurement authority). In September 1984, the French government, acknowledging that other countries' requirements were too far apart from French operational needs, decided to build a combat version of the ACX with the newly designed Snecma M88 engines. The proposal totally eliminated any hope that France cold be lured back into the ECF program, since those specifications were not acceptable to Germany and the UK.

xxx

Building of the Rafale A technology demonstrator started at Dassault's Saint-Cloud factory in March 1984, before a contract with the DGA was signed. It was temporarily powered by General Electric F404-GE-400 engines (68.8 kN of reheated thrust each). …

https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-133468254.html#
 
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BON PLAN

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IOC of Rafale was 2002 and FOC was 2004. It has been in development for 22 years! There's nothing standard about that.

The design parameters for Rafale were concieved in 1979.
First flight of Rafale C was 1991.
Between the demonstrator Rafale A and Rafale C, no one component or shape was remain, engines were not the same.
The first study about ACX (futur Rafale A) were lauched in march 1983. Raface C program is inked in 1988. So your claim about 1979 is, as often, a total bull shit.
 

Armand2REP

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First flight of Rafale C was 1991.
Between the demonstrator Rafale A and Rafale C, no one component or shape was remain, engines were not the same.
The first study about ACX (futur Rafale A) were lauched in march 1983. Raface C program is inked in 1988. So your claim about 1979 is, as often, a total bull shit.
He is confused with Mirage 4000, don't pay it any attention.
 

asianobserve

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First flight of Rafale C was 1991.
Between the demonstrator Rafale A and Rafale C, no one component or shape was remain, engines were not the same.
The first study about ACX (futur Rafale A) were lauched in march 1983. Raface C program is inked in 1988. So your claim about 1979 is, as often, a total bull shit.

You're pdisputing the history of Rafale? Just read the article i posted and tell me what's wrong there.

Can't handle the truth?
 
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Immanuel

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And you are confident in the fact that US will take 2000 ?

1) it's not as affordable as intended.
2) it's not a effective as intended (not a small F22 when a F16 was a small F15)
3) The support will cost far more than intended.
4) All the others customers have already cut orders.
5) F35 is a high end plane. Most (quite all) of the last 10 years US air campaign was against poor opponent (the same can be said about all west air forces).

The USAF, USN and USMC F35 number target only remain to support the plane in the export campaigns.

Why do you think USA searching a low cost support CAS plane (a turboprop one) ?
Most of this can be summed in a lovely term 'Fake News'

This sounds like dogshit sold on CNN everyday
 

Sancho

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France to buy more Rafales, A330 tankers under new spending plan
09 FEBRUARY, 2018

Still to be ratified by lawmakers, the military spending plan, or LPM, covers the period 2019-2025.

Under the proposal, Paris intends, by 2025, to have a fleet of 171 Rafales for its air force and navy: up from 143 at the start of the period. The balance of its combat inventory will be made up of 55 upgraded Dassault Mirage 2000Ds.

In addition, however, it will in 2023 order a fifth tranche of Rafales, for delivery in the 2030 timeframe. These will be built in an enhanced F4 standard, development work on which will commence in 2018...

...In addition, a new targeting pod will be purchased for the Rafale, with deliveries due by 2023...
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...more-rafales-a330-tankers-under-new-s-445762/
 

Tactical Frog

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If plan goes as this, France just gets 28 extra Rafale between now and 2025 :sad:
http://aviationweek.com/singapore-airshow-2018/malaysia-eyes-used-aircraft

With that market closed down now for good, the export options for Rafale are getting smaller and smaller.

The current trend to cost-effective light attack, light to medium class single, or 2nd hand twin engine fighters, is a big problem, since Rafale is too costly to compete with most of them, while France has no 2nd hand fighters to divert, like Sweden or the EF partners.

The few tenders, that are looking for new medium class fighters, are not only covered by the other 2 Eurocanards too, but also the F35, which puts Rafale in all kinds of disadvantages too.
A door is slammed, another opens... it has been reported that Indonesia is looking for Western fighters. Could be anything including Rafale.

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/indonesia-shopping-western-fighters
 
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Sancho

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If plan goes as this, France just gets 28 extra Rafale between now and 2025 :sad:

Yes and most of them will cover for the once that France sold off to Egypt and Qatar, although they were planned for French forces. So their is no actual increase in numbers, in fact (but correct me if my memory is flawed here), wasn't the last plan to get 180 x Rafales and the rest upgraded M2Ks?


A door is slammed, another opens... it has been reported that Indonesia is looking for Western fighters. Could be anything including Rafale.
Not exactly, the loss of Malaysia is an issue, because there was a hope that they buy what IAF buys and maintain or even produce the fighters on an Indian production line. Now that chance is gone, while Indonesia is a whole different issue again. They already have Flankers and F16s, are interested in Su 35, or F16 upgrades and possibly add some more V's/B70's to them. Not to mention that their long term plan is, to partner with S. Korea for the KFX fighter. The last thing they need now, is another type of fighter at high costs.

Realistically, there are hardly any tenders at the moment , where Rafale would be an obvious or prefered choice.
Belgium is gone, Finland possibly political (towards US or Sweden), Poland political and financial (they are begging for US protection and EU fundings), Switzerland (now includes US fighters, which adds political, financial and technical advantages in their court). UAE, are more than happy with the M2K-9 and even happier with their B60, while their goal is F35.

Then you have several eastern European countries, that can't afford either new or expensive fighters like Rafale.

So the only hope remains additional orders from Egypt (if the Saudis fund them again), Qatar and India.

It's sad, that such a beautiful and indeed capable fighter does not get the deserved orders, but that's Dassault fault for sure!
 

Tactical Frog

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Not exactly, the loss of Malaysia is an issue, because there was a hope that they buy what IAF buys and maintain or even produce the fighters on an Indian production line. Now that chance is gone, while Indonesia is a whole different issue again. They already have Flankers and F16s, are interested in Su 35, or F16 upgrades and possibly add some more V's/B70's to them. Not to mention that their long term plan is, to partner with S. Korea for the KFX fighter. The last thing they need now, is another type of fighter at high costs.

Realistically, there are hardly any tenders at the moment , where Rafale would be an obvious or prefered choice.
Belgium is gone, Finland possibly political (towards US or Sweden), Poland political and financial (they are begging for US protection and EU fundings), Switzerland (now includes US fighters, which adds political, financial and technical advantages in their court). UAE, are more than happy with the M2K-9 and even happier with their B60, while their goal is F35.

Then you have several eastern European countries, that can't afford either new or expensive fighters like Rafale.

So the only hope remains additional orders from Egypt (if the Saudis fund them again), Qatar and India.

It's sad, that such a beautiful and indeed capable fighter does not get the deserved orders, but that's Dassault fault for sure!
Dassault has shown in the past an ability to surprise against all odds. UAE always had good relationship with France. And no, they will never get F-35. Pipe dream. They don’t belong to the first circle of trusted US allies.
 

BON PLAN

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Belgium is gone, Finland possibly political (towards US or Sweden), Poland political and financial (they are begging for US protection and EU fundings), Switzerland (now includes US fighters, which adds political, financial and technical advantages in their court). UAE, are more than happy with the M2K-9 and even happier with their B60, while their goal is F35.
Belgium is gone? Among the gvt, the DM is a little bit alone. He will not decide from himself. The game is more open than you imagine. France offered a large package to belgium.
Finland? probably dead.
Poland : you are right. They are the worst europeen country ever. I would have prefered a Polexit than a Brexit. A shame !
Switzerland : they don't care about USA. financialy they were hurt about fiancial secret and will don't forget so early. Rafale was their prefered bird and they will not forget that.
UAE : are they so nice with F16B60? they have not all the keys of the plane and a follow order was expected and never arrived. F35? they are too demanding to accept this shit.
 

Sancho

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Dassault has shown in the past an ability to surprise against all odds. UAE always had good relationship with France. And no, they will never get F-35. Pipe dream. They don’t belong to the first circle of trusted US allies.
I don't think they will get it either, but they still want a stealth fighter and not Rafale. Rafale offers too little advantage to them over M2K9 and F16 B60, while any stealth fighter would be a credible upgrade. That's why the talk about Russia or Chinese alternatives are coming up, or why the Saudis were interested in teaming up with Turkey on their programme.
 

smestarz

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Indonesia is not a rich country, It might be looking at all the western fighters, But its more likely to go for maybe Su-30 or Su-35 or MiG-35 even. Indonesia being an island nation, Su-30 MKI class becomes what it might require, Surely Eurofighter and Rafale come within its requirement field, but It might go with Gripen. Thailand is using Gripen.
Also Indonesia is along with Korea for its 5th Gen plane if you remember. so maybe the option could be 2nd hand Mirage 2000 as stop gap solution

If plan goes as this, France just gets 28 extra Rafale between now and 2025 :sad:


A door is slammed, another opens... it has been reported that Indonesia is looking for Western fighters. Could be anything including Rafale.

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/indonesia-shopping-western-fighters
 

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