Know Your 'Rafale'

[Immanuel]

All is true. And you know it.

There is hardly any truth to the fake news you present here. Most including yourself have no capacity to understand military doctrine. Go back to your little French bubble.

 

[indus]

Is it possible the price of Rafale includes some money to be paid for black R&D projects, which the Govt may want to keep secret atleast till the time those tech/ products mature and news of them can be leaked in media.

 

[Armand2REP]

Is it possible the price of Rafale includes some money to be paid for black R&D projects, which the Govt may want to keep secret atleast till the time those tech/ products mature and news of them can be leaked in media.

They do not want to reveal the secrets of nuclear delivery vehicle.

 

[Sancho]

Why the defence ministry is wrong in its Rafale defence
Ministry fails to explain why it didn't ask for a competitive Eurofighter quote
by Saurabh Joshi • February 11, 2018

...“Negotiations shall be held with L-1 only,” says the 2005 CVC circular, which adds,”In case of L-1 backing out there should be re-tendering as per extant instructions.”

But these rules apply only to tenders.

Prime Minister Modi, in his announcement of the request for 36 Rafale aircraft, specified that this was under a ‘separate process’ and the IAF had issued no new tender...

...But readers will remember that the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter aircraft was also approved as technically qualified by the IAF.

And since this was a separate process, as explained by the prime minister, and not a tender, the CVC rules did not apply. The CVC prohibition that applied to MMRCA tender did not apply for this separate process.

Not only was the defence ministry in a position to entertain an Airbus offer for the Eurofighter Typhoon, under this separate process, they could have actively solicited an offer from them. While the UPA government was prohibited by CVC rules from entertaining an Airbus offer, there was nothing preventing the NDA government from doing so, when it decided to cancel the MMRCA tender.

Why this was not done remains a mystery, in spite of the lengthy defence offered by the defence ministry on Wednesday. And the defence minister is now in the unenviable position of having to defend something (not) done, much before she took office...

Full article here:
https://www.stratpost.com/defence-ministry-wrong-rafale-defence/


Sieh dir den Tweet von @YusufDFI an:

 

[BON PLAN]

I don't think they will get it either, but they still want a stealth fighter and not Rafale. Rafale offers too little advantage to them over M2K9 and F16 B60, while any stealth fighter would be a credible upgrade. That's why the talk about Russia or Chinese alternatives are coming up, or why the Saudis were interested in teaming up with Turkey on their programme.

too little advantage?
more range
more load
more discret (it's à LO plane if not a VLO)
Meteor
AESA
fully multirole

X band stealth will vanished. Every country are working on. It's not for no reason that new chinese destroyers and cruisers are equipped with L band radars.

 

[BON PLAN]

Full article here:
https://www.stratpost.com/defence-ministry-wrong-rafale-defence/


Sieh dir den Tweet von @YusufDFI an:

because EF is not a nuclear platform, and far away because studied from the beginning for AtoA missions only.

 

[Sancho]

too little advantage?
more range
more load
more discret (it's à LO plane if not a VLO)
Meteor
AESA
fully multirole

The F16 B60 has the better AESA according to the UAE, has more thrust, IRST, offers higher load and range capabilities thx to the CFTs, is of course fully multi role capable and comes at lower unit and operational costs than Rafale.

The only advantages Rafale offers, are use of Black Shaheen and Al Tariq weapons, which however are integrated in their Mirage 2K-9s anyway and Meteor and that's just a matter of integrating it to the Block 60.

Even the EF P3E offers more for UAE, with Captor E, Pirate, Brimstone, more flight performance, higher Meteor loads and they already advertising AL Tariq as a future addition too, but then again, the UAE wants stealth.

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafale sale to Malaysia dependent on stopping EU Palm Oil Ban

http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/ca...-may-hit-uks-rm27-bil-defence-deal-with-msia/

 

[BON PLAN]

The F16 B60 has the better AESA according to the UAE, has more thrust, IRST, offers higher load and range capabilities thx to the CFTs, is of course fully multi role capable and comes at lower unit and operational costs than Rafale.

Already aswered to that. No, RBE2AESA is largely at the F16 level. Largely.
More thrust but a far less aero.
higher load? you must mistake with another plane than Rafale.
CFT? no need on Rafale.
Maybe by saying that 1000 x you will be self convinced !

 

[BON PLAN]

with Captor E

wake me up when it will be fully operational....

 

[WolfPack86]

Full article here:
https://www.stratpost.com/defence-ministry-wrong-rafale-defence/


Sieh dir den Tweet von @YusufDFI an:

Is there is any corruption in rafale deal and even Defence Forum India owner Yusuf is questioning Rafale deal. Only option Govt of India has is to go for hybrid MIG 35 which will be India tailored adjustment including fitting Kaveri engine.

 

[Adioz]

Is there is any corruption in rafale deal and even Defence Forum India owner Yusuf is questioning Rafale deal. Only option Govt of India has is to go for hybrid MIG 35 which will be India tailored adjustment including fitting Kaveri engine.

If there is nothing wrong with selling off 2G spectrum without holding fair auctions (competition), then there is nothing wrong in settling for a G2G deal with Dassault without reconsidering an new offer from the L2 bidder (Eurofighter).
Asking for such a quote would have hopelessly delayed the acquisition. Negotiating offsets with one party was so tough, negotiations for offsets with L2 bidder in parallel would have led to an even more drawn out negotiation process. I do concede that holding these negotiations simultaneously with L1 and L2 bidders might have given us a better offset deal due to competition. But the delay in acquisitions might have led to a bigger problem: a gap in our defences. You cannot justify the better offset deal if it leads to a shortfall in capability for the time being when you conduct the negotiations. Its putting the cart before the horse.

That is what I like to think anyway. What say you?

 

[WolfPack86]

If there is nothing wrong with selling off 2G spectrum without holding fair auctions (competition), then there is nothing wrong in settling for a G2G deal with Dassault without reconsidering an new offer from the L2 bidder (Eurofighter).
Asking for such a quote would have hopelessly delayed the acquisition. Negotiating offsets with one party was so tough, negotiations for offsets with L2 bidder in parallel would have led to an even more drawn out negotiation process. I do concede that holding these negotiations simultaneously with L1 and L2 bidders might have given us a better offset deal due to competition. But the delay in acquisitions might have led to a bigger problem: a gap in our defences. You cannot justify the better offset deal if it leads to a shortfall in capability for the time being when you conduct the negotiations. Its putting the cart before the horse.

That is what I like to think anyway. What say you?

Yeah you are completely right when people didn't mind corruption in 2G spectrum of course they won't mind Govt to Govt rafale deal. Only thing i was very disappointed that there was no technology transfer and manufacturing rafale jets in India. And more jobs would have been created in India by these deal. But netas busy playing politics over India's national security. Especially Rahul Gandhi.

 

[BON PLAN]

Is there is any corruption in rafale deal and even Defence Forum India owner Yusuf is questioning Rafale deal. Only option Govt of India has is to go for hybrid MIG 35 which will be India tailored adjustment including fitting Kaveri engine.

STOP DREAMING !

 

[Sancho]

Already aswered to that. No, RBE2AESA is largely at the F16 level. Largely.
More thrust but a far less aero.
higher load? you must mistake with another plane than Rafale.
CFT? no need on Rafale.
Maybe by saying that 1000 x you will be self convinced !

No not answered, you only gave an own explanation for the AESA, that you can't back up with any official source that they are happy with the radar now.

Yes higher loads:

That's an B60 with 4 x Hakeem PGMs, if Rafale had the same weapon integrated, it could carry only 2 at the wings and 3 at max if 1 would be added to the centerline.
The CFTs free the inner wingstations of the F16s for additional weapons, while replacing 1 fuel tank ...

4 x Hakeem, GBU 16, JSOW, Harpoon, HARM
4 x multi racks for up to 8 x GBU 12

for example, while Rafale has only 2 mid wing stations and the centerline to carry A2G weapons next to fuel.
Even in CAP the B60 could carry up to 6 x Meteor if it would be integrated + 2 x WVR missiles, while Rafale can carry only 4 x Meteor + 4 x MICA.

 

[Sancho]

Is there is any corruption in rafale deal and even Defence Forum India owner Yusuf is questioning Rafale deal. Only option Govt of India has is to go for hybrid MIG 35 which will be India tailored adjustment including fitting Kaveri engine.

You have to differ between what the Congress is alleging for political reasons wrt the coming elections and the valid questions that were raised.

So far there is no proof for corruption or crony capitalism, but the NDA government put themselves in the weak position, by claiming lower costs, without being able to prove it now and that's what Congress is using to their advantage now.

The valid questions on the other side, are related to how the deal was announced and why? Because the MoD was not involved, the government can't answer if there were approvals prior to the announcement, nor why a single vendor situation was created, when they even admitted that the EF was equally suitable and most of all, when IAF never asked for 36 fighters in a separate tender.

So there are a lot of issues, that makes the deal questionable and simply bad for the IAF and the country as a whole, but most of this gets downplayed in the political fued, which BJP btw played in the same manner in 2013 as well, when they raised questions about the same Rafale to score political points before the elections.

 

[Adioz]

As congress is politicising Rafale deal , I doubt we wil order additional rafales any time soon.IAF will be forced to heavily depend on SU 30s

On the contrary, current government might push for more Rafales so that the high per unit costs come down.

 

[Adioz]

When? They r in to last year of their current term

Maybe its just me hoping that they do so due to election pressure. They can at least start the negotiations, I hope.

 

[Sancho]

I doubt we wil order additional rafales any time soon

That's not planned anyway, IAFs priority is on making up numbers of MMRCAs and that's not possible with Rafales anymore. So if there is money available at a later stage, 36 more could be added.

 

[BON PLAN]

No not answered, you only gave an own explanation for the AESA, that you can't back up with any official source that they are happy with the radar now.

Yes higher loads:

That's an B60 with 4 x Hakeem PGMs, if Rafale had the same weapon integrated, it could carry only 2 at the wings and 3 at max if 1 would be added to the centerline.
The CFTs free the inner wingstations of the F16s for additional weapons, while replacing 1 fuel tank ...

4 x Hakeem, GBU 16, JSOW, Harpoon, HARM
4 x multi racks for up to 8 x GBU 12

for example, while Rafale has only 2 mid wing stations and the centerline to carry A2G weapons next to fuel.
Even in CAP the B60 could carry up to 6 x Meteor if it would be integrated + 2 x WVR missiles, while Rafale can carry only 4 x Meteor + 4 x MICA.

The best answer was given by UAE themselves : they no more need a higher output power for the RBE2AESA because the french version, 9.6kW, with european T/R is enough (ie at least better than bk60 radar, which is smaller).
The initial claim about Rafale radar was with junk US T/R modules. European are far better (in fact US gave us 3rd choice...)

Have you forgoten than there is 2 hard poins under each Rafale wing? the two can carry up to 2000kg load and/or external tanks. So 4 x Hakeem is not a problem, just to open the config.

just replace the tanks and SCALP by smaller Hakeem....

older config : note that SCALP can be put under each of the 4 hard points...

do you prefer this pic ?

or this one?


and there are always 2 point for AAM or rockets or... under the wings + 2 on wing tips.

under the frame of Rafale there is a 2000l tanks ((1700l for F16), and inside more fuel than Bk60.

Any claim about range & load from a F16 is dead against a Rafale ! yesterday, today and tomorrow.