Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Remember, there will be 3,000 plus units that will be in operation.

My bet : less than 2000. (but it's still impressiv)

 

[asianobserve]

My bet : less than 2000. (but it's still impressiv)

It will not be less than 2,000 for the US alone is already more than 2,000. That number alone is already huge and will present a significant level of economies of scale.

 

[BON PLAN]

It will not be less than 2,000 for the US alone is already more than 2,000. That number alone is already huge and will present a significant level of economies of scale.

And you are confident in the fact that US will take 2000 ?

1) it's not as affordable as intended.
2) it's not a effective as intended (not a small F22 when a F16 was a small F15)
3) The support will cost far more than intended.
4) All the others customers have already cut orders.
5) F35 is a high end plane. Most (quite all) of the last 10 years US air campaign was against poor opponent (the same can be said about all west air forces).

The USAF, USN and USMC F35 number target only remain to support the plane in the export campaigns.

Why do you think USA searching a low cost support CAS plane (a turboprop one) ?

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

A Lot 10 pre-production flyaway price for an F-35A is only US$94.6M.

An the production price target for an F-35A will US $85M.

Ah the failed foreign dalal Rajat Pandit speaks up!

 

[SELVAM]

Something is stinking

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

Something is stinking

Your arse is burning. Congress Social Media team is very active nowadays.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ed-a-better-deal-explained-1092564-2017-11-23

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...ence-minister-nirmala-sitharaman-1730631.html

 

[Prashant12]

Something is stinking

The ENTIRE price escalation (300%) of the Rafale happened during the UPA. 126 planes cost

in Jan 2012 10.4 billion
https://t.co/VmmoxHgGpE

in April 2013 15 billion (50% escalation)
https://t.co/XDCsfheqW6

in Jan 2014 28-30 Billion (300% escalation) http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-dna-exclusive-100-price-escalation-on-rafale-fighter-aircraft-to-rs-175-lakh-crore-likely-to-dent-iaf-s-strike-capability-1957107…

 

[Dovah]

The ENTIRE price escalation (300%) of the Rafale happened during the UPA. 126 planes cost

in Jan 2012 10.4 billion
https://t.co/VmmoxHgGpE

in April 2013 15 billion (50% escalation)
https://t.co/XDCsfheqW6

in Jan 2014 28-30 Billion (300% escalation) http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-dna-exclusive-100-price-escalation-on-rafale-fighter-aircraft-to-rs-175-lakh-crore-likely-to-dent-iaf-s-strike-capability-1957107…

I think the reason the opposition is bringing up Rafale is precisely because they are aware of the Secrecy clause. 4D chess.

 

[asianobserve]

And you are confident in the fact that US will take 2000 ?

1) it's not as affordable as intended.
2) it's not a effective as intended (not a small F22 when a F16 was a small F15)
3) The support will cost far more than intended.
4) All the others customers have already cut orders.
5) F35 is a high end plane. Most (quite all) of the last 10 years US air campaign was against poor opponent (the same can be said about all west air forces).

The USAF, USN and USMC F35 number target only remain to support the plane in the export campaigns.

Why do you think USA searching a low cost support CAS plane (a turboprop one) ?

You keep on repeating the same discredited lines. How can F-35 be not afordable when even at its current pre-production flyaway price ($94.6M) it's already way cheaper than Rafale's flyaway price to India ($100M+)? And the F-35 is 5th gen while Rafale is already an old platform.

Of course not everybody will be allowed to buy the F-35, even if they can afford it, while Dassault is so desperate they will even sell Rafale to the Taliban if they can afford it..

 

[Tactical Frog]

The ENTIRE price escalation (300%) of the Rafale happened during the UPA. 126 planes cost

in Jan 2012 10.4 billion
https://t.co/VmmoxHgGpE

in April 2013 15 billion (50% escalation)
https://t.co/XDCsfheqW6

in Jan 2014 28-30 Billion (300% escalation) http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-dna-exclusive-100-price-escalation-on-rafale-fighter-aircraft-to-rs-175-lakh-crore-likely-to-dent-iaf-s-strike-capability-1957107…

Funny to see people like Abhijit Iyer Mitra who trashed the Rafale at the time of MMRCA coming to the rescue of the deal, but no problem , every bit of help is welcome

Abhijit Iyer Mitra vs Ajai Shukla

https://www.pscp.tv/w/bUowMTFlUkV4c...KTdaGD2KjLosFTOI_7EbqwA4Ov6OHJPRzJo5CFVY2mSVq

 

[Sancho]

I think the reason the opposition is bringing up Rafale is precisely because they are aware of the Secrecy clause. 4D chess.

Congress is doing the same that BJP did when they were in opposition and the reasons BJP attacked Rafale were far more insane (nobody has bought it, so we shouldn't either).
Moreover, DM Sitharman made a mistake by claiming things, that's she now can't follow up:

Nov 2017
"On being asked repeatedly how much the aircraft cost when the UPA was negotiating purchase after Rafale was selected as lowest bidder in a trial process of six plane makers, Sitharaman said: “ I am not shying away from giving figures”


Feb 2018
"As per ‘Article-10’ of the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) between Government of India and Government of France on the purchase of Rafale aircraft, the protection of the classified information and material exchanged under IGA is governed by the provisions of the Security Agreement signed between the two nations in 2008,” the minister said in reply to a question raised in Rajya Sabha."


She has to defend the PMs deal and Parrikars negotiations, without being part of any of it. So it's not surprising that she looks bad and that the opposition takes that chance, especially with elections coming.


But that's just politics and sadly distracting from the real issues with the Rafale deal.

 

[Armand2REP]

You keep on repeating the same discredited lines. How can F-35 be not afordable when even at its current pre-production flyaway price ($94.6M) it's already way cheaper than Rafale's flyaway price to India ($100M+)? And the F-35 is 5th gen while Rafale is already an old platform.

Of course not everybody will be allowed to buy the F-35, even if they can afford it, while Dassault is so desperate they will even sell Rafale to the Taliban if they can afford it..

The fly away cost in 2017 for F-35A was $111.3 million. http://bit.ly/2Bgo4Jg

For having such a brand new aircraft the F-35As availability rate of 50% is terrible. It still suffers several hundred priority 1 deficiencies which hardly make it air worthy. You got panels flying off, pilots starved for oxygen, refueling probes that break, faulty diagnostic software. The supply chain is in paralysis because the computer can't even tell what parts it needs, not to mention anyone with skill can hack it. No wonder the Chinese were able to do it.

 

[asianobserve]

The fly away cost in 2017 for F-35A was $111.3 million. http://bit.ly/2Bgo4Jg

The fly away cost in 2017 for F-35A was $111.3 million.

For having such a brand new aircraft the F-35As availability rate of 50% is terrible. It still suffers several hundred priority 1 deficiencies which hardly make it air worthy. You got panels flying off, pilots starved for oxygen, refueling probes that break, faulty diagnostic software. The supply chain is in paralysis because the computer can't even tell what parts it needs, not to mention anyone with skill can hack it. No wonder the Chinese were able to do it.

That's projected cost if low rate order is lower than planned. The last contracted flyaway price however is still $94.6M for F-35A.

http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2017/July 2017/Lockheed-Gets-Lot-11-F-35-Deal.aspx

Beat that!

The low availability rate is not totally unexpected since the aircraft is still in its infancy. Almost all the bugs are already being ironed out.

Rafale operators can only salivate at the capabilities the F-35 brings.

 

[Armand2REP]

That's projected cost if low rate order is lower than planned. The last contracted flyaway price however is still $94.6M for F-35A.

http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2017/July 2017/Lockheed-Gets-Lot-11-F-35-Deal.aspx

Beat that!

The low availability rate is not totally unexpected since the aircraft is still in its infancy. Almost all the bugs are already being ironed out.

Rafale operators can only salivate at the capabilities the F-35 brings.

This notification also confirms the unit cost of an F-35A is $190 million – over twice the $85 million price that Lockheed is still claiming – and which is very close to the $206 million that we determined for Lot 5 aircraft being delivered in 2017.
And those $190 million do not include the cost of ground equipment and weapons – both things that are required for a warplane to fly combat missions.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/190048/.html

 

[asianobserve]

This notification also confirms the unit cost of an F-35A is $190 million – over twice the $85 million price that Lockheed is still claiming – and which is very close to the $206 million that we determined for Lot 5 aircraft being delivered in 2017.
And those $190 million do not include the cost of ground equipment and weapons – both things that are required for a warplane to fly combat missions.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/190048/.html

That's rather disingenious. The price quoted in that article is not flyaway cost but the whole program cost for Belgium. It included everything needed to operate all the 34 ordered F-35As including spares, flares, full motion simulator, ferry cost, training, etc. It's in the article.

If Belgium buys its F-35A after start of full rate production most probably the flyaway cost of F-35A will only be $85M.

The last contracted fly-away cost of F-35A (a flying aircraft) is $94.6M under Lot 10. Meanwhile, some sources are claiming that the flyaway cost if Rafale to India will be $100M+!

 

[patriots]

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[Armand2REP]

That's rather disingenious. The price quoted in that article is not flyaway cost but the whole program cost for Belgium. It included everything needed to operate all the 34 ordered F-35As including spares, flares, full motion simulator, ferry cost, training, etc. It's in the article.

If Belgium buys its F-35A after start of full rate production most probably the flyaway cost of F-35A will only be $85M.

The last contracted fly-away cost of F-35A (a flying aircraft) is $94.6M under Lot 10. Meanwhile, some sources are claiming that the flyaway cost if Rafale to India will be $100M+!

It doesn't include weapons, aviation facilities or long lead support which would require several separate contracts.

 

[BON PLAN]

The ENTIRE price escalation (300%) of the Rafale happened during the UPA. 126 planes cost

in Jan 2012 10.4 billion
https://t.co/VmmoxHgGpE

in April 2013 15 billion (50% escalation)
https://t.co/XDCsfheqW6

in Jan 2014 28-30 Billion (300% escalation) http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-dna-exclusive-100-price-escalation-on-rafale-fighter-aircraft-to-rs-175-lakh-crore-likely-to-dent-iaf-s-strike-capability-1957107…

I think the first "prices" were approximation made by politics.
Or they thaught the price was only the dry price of the sole planes, without support, spare parts, weapons, tools, base accomodation... (10.4 billion / 126 planes = 82 million each. it's coherent with a then Rafale price without VAT)

 

[BON PLAN]

That's projected cost if low rate order is lower than planned. The last contracted flyaway price however is still $94.6M for F-35A.

http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2017/July 2017/Lockheed-Gets-Lot-11-F-35-Deal.aspx

Beat that!

The low availability rate is not totally unexpected since the aircraft is still in its infancy. Almost all the bugs are already being ironed out.

Rafale operators can only salivate at the capabilities the F-35 brings.

The projected cost of F35 was 65 $ million....

F35 in its infancy? 10 years after the first flight of the pre serial one? You are pulling my leg Bro.

For 10 bugs they are corrected, 12 are coming.

The main difference between Rafale and F35 is : one is operationnal, day after day, the other not. And FOC of the F35 is postponed month after month. It's not on real duty that LM speak of af new engine ... what a master piece !

 

[BON PLAN]

If Belgium buys its F-35A after start of full rate production most probably the flyaway cost of F-35A will only be $85M.

:hippo: .