Know Your 'Rafale'

[gadeshi]

A mix of the two.
French air force HQ general said some months ago that the general config of Rafale is excellent, but that the successor of the deterrence missile ASMP A, probably hypersonic, will need a bigger platform. So a kind of Rafale XL.

For the internal bay, it's not official, but when you see the life of a fighter, it carry air to ground weapons few time. So it' clever to embark AAM, but to rely on external stealth pod for the AtoG weaponery, and only for the very first days of a war. After that, if you win the air superiority and have smashed the SAM, you don't need stealth no more.

One of the main problem of F35 is that it is fat all his life long just to embark some time a air to ground load.
Even in a air only config, it has a heavy drag.

So, the like of Mirage IVNG is expected?

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[gadeshi]

My picture shows another thing : to sustain a certain speed, F35 need a higher AoA than F16 (it's clearly visible). But AoA can't reach the sky ! above 35° at max it's stall. And when a F35 reach 35° the other planes (F16, EF, Gripen, Mig29, Su30...) are in a confortable area and are far more agile.
A F35 in a WVR is dead.

Some may say that F35 don't need to go in WVR. It's wrong.
Wrong because the other "true" 5th gen US fighter, F22, is TVC equipped and received Helmet and short range AAM + canon so as to be able to fight in WVR. It was designed for from the early beginning.
Wrong because some engagement rules need now and much more tomorrow to positively identificate a target. Even with a nice optical/IR system you can't at more than 20 to 30 Km. WVR is then near... specially if the target is approaching.

It's only a marketing argument to say F35 will destroy all the opponent from dozen miles away. Only because it can't win in any other situation. It's a fat turkey, a kind of new Tornado ADV, smashed by all the other plane against it.

Russians call F-35 a Fat Penguine (F-35 resembles fat non-flying bird Especially its cross-sections normal map chart

But F-35 is not a new Tornado ADV (cause ADV is a non-agile fast interceptor, which role is not reachable for F-35 due to its poor acceleration and speed).

F-35 is a MiG-27 of the 21-st Century.
And it could be an exellent plane if and only if it will cost like MiG-27

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[asianobserve]

Russians call F-35 a Fat Penguine (F-35 resembles fat non-flying bird Especially its cross-sections normal map chart



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Like what this Russian fellow said about the F-35?


:biggrin2:

 

[gadeshi]

Like what this Russian fellow said about the F-35?


:biggrin2:

Laugh at yourself posting a stupid bot Denis Shurygin which cannot distinguish tank from IFV and IFV from APC
Good luck in your crusade

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[smestarz]

If you are thinking those are close to facts or some rumours, then its just BS that Bon Plan is known to weave. The French are planning for F4 upgrades which will be available in 2025 or so. So why would they develop upgrades that will be available after next 5 years if they are coming with new plane.

" Rafale XL" could be Rafale with new engine and perhaps a new coat of paint. France does not have the money to develop and buy new plane, that is why Mirage 2000 is flying more sorties than Rafale .
The French forumers say a) Rafale is more than twice capable as Mirage 2000, or almost like 1 Rafale do mission which will need 3 Mirage 2000 and yet, the "inefficient" Mirage 2000 are flying and actually more than the planes that will replace them even after 30 years. of Rafale in action. Within 30 years almost all of the Mirages should be (therotically) be replaced, but it has not happened, Simply because the French end up in position where they wanted the new plane Rafale and yet the older plane is being produced. This sort of situation you can see with Su-30 SM / Su-35 and Su-57. The French opted to mothball the new planes, and the Russians order few planes just to start moving.

Most of the European countries do not have the big requirement nor the funds to develop a new project independently,. that is why Germany and France want to team up to develop new possibily 5th Gen unmanned plane to be used in future and thus sharing resources.

I would not be surprised if the "Rafale XL" would look and work like F-35 though

That sounds really cool. Where did you get this info? Is it official, or just rumours from forums?

 

[asianobserve]

Laugh at yourself posting a stupid bot Denis Shurygin which cannot distinguish tank from IFV and IFV from APC
Good luck in your crusade

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But but but you said the F-35 in Russia is called a fat penguin? Then this Russian defense expert comes out and says that all these critics are wrong and that the F-35 is actually a very good plane!

Besides, tell me comrade if the F-35 is really such a lemon then why is Kremlin employing a lot of anti-F35 bots and trolls whose job are only to discredit the F-35 in defense forums, news and Youtube comments sections. Aside from that Kremlin's troll factory and propaganda outlets are constantly spouting anti-F35 smears aimed at American and potential F-35 client countries?

If the F-35 is such a lemon why spend so much resources trying to discredit it? Why can't Russia just be silent about the defects of the F-35 and let America and her allies buy this useless junk you say? As the old saying goes: "DO NOT INTERRUPT YOUR ENEMY WHEN HE'S COMMITTING MISTAKES."

 

[BON PLAN]

The ability to do high AOA has nothing to do with speed. It is simply the ability of the aircraft's nose to be pointed in a certain direction. This is most useful in dogfights since missiles are aligned with the nose of the aircraft. Thus where the nose is pointed is also where the missiles are pointed.

The lower the speed is, the higher the AoA is.
But a wing stall when the AoA is too high. A max of 30 to 35° is the norm for fighter wings.
If a F16 need a 7° AoA when a F35 need 15°, that means that when the same F16 reach 25°, in some WVR, the F35 goes to the ground because it stall.
=> F35 can't sustain the low speed flight of a dog fight. F16 overrun it by a confortable margin.

 

[BON PLAN]

Both the F-22 and the F-35 are designed to primarily fight from BVR and secondarily WVR.

YES, they are designed for.

But only F22 is fully compliant to the initial purpose.

F35 fall short. Too heavy, too short (that reduce the effectiveness of the control surfaces), too massive frontaly.

 

[BON PLAN]

If you are thinking those are close to facts or some rumours, then its just BS that Bon Plan is known to weave. The French are planning for F4 upgrades which will be available in 2025 or so. So why would they develop upgrades that will be available after next 5 years if they are coming with new plane.

" Rafale XL" could be Rafale with new engine and perhaps a new coat of paint. France does not have the money to develop and buy new plane, that is why Mirage 2000 is flying more sorties than Rafale .
The French forumers say a) Rafale is more than twice capable as Mirage 2000, or almost like 1 Rafale do mission which will need 3 Mirage 2000 and yet, the "inefficient" Mirage 2000 are flying and actually more than the planes that will replace them even after 30 years. of Rafale in action. Within 30 years almost all of the Mirages should be (therotically) be replaced, but it has not happened, Simply because the French end up in position where they wanted the new plane Rafale and yet the older plane is being produced. This sort of situation you can see with Su-30 SM / Su-35 and Su-57. The French opted to mothball the new planes, and the Russians order few planes just to start moving.

Most of the European countries do not have the big requirement nor the funds to develop a new project independently,. that is why Germany and France want to team up to develop new possibily 5th Gen unmanned plane to be used in future and thus sharing resources.

I would not be surprised if the "Rafale XL" would look and work like F-35 though

Smestarz ! The return...

1) Rafale XL will come after F4 or MLU. In 15 years ? It will be a totaly new plane. But you will probably be among those that will say "it's a modernised Super Mirage 4000"....
2) Mirage 2000 were upgrading because Rafale were not purchased quickly enough for the air force needs. We need M2000 because of a shortage of Rafale. Just as US will rely on old F15 and F16 even when all the F22 are delivered and during the deliveries of F35.
3) I don't think France and Germany will work together on a futur fighter.
4) About BS : don't forget that we didn't agree about the indian purchase of rafale. You say : they will NEVER take it. I say it will come. You showed your propension to weave BS. It's one of your very rare speciality.

Good day.

 

[asianobserve]

The lower the speed is, the higher the AoA is.
But a wing stall when the AoA is too high. A max of 30 to 35° is the norm for fighter wings.
If a F16 need a 7° AoA when a F35 need 15°, that means that when the same F16 reach 25°, in some WVR, the F35 goes to the ground because it stall.

Clearly the F-35 didn't stall in the video.

The Rafale simply cannot match that kind of high AOA capability.

=> F35 can't sustain the low speed flight of a dog fight. F16 overrun it by a confortable margin.

Another unsubstantiated claim. The F-35 can turn inside an F-16's turn due to higher AOA. That's what the Norwegian test pilot said of the F-35 (that pilot was previously an F-16 pilot).

Then as far as energy into the turn, the F-35 can muster a lot of energy thanks to massive F135 engine and lack of TVC. Besides, in a real dogfight 4th and so called 4.5 gen fighters' ability to maneuver will be severely hampered by external weapons, sensors and fuel tanks, which causes drag penalty by as much as 40%. The F-35 on the other hand will fight clean.

 

[gadeshi]

But but but you said the F-35 in Russia is called a fat penguin? Then this Russian defense expert comes out and says that all these critics are wrong and that the F-35 is actually a very good plane!

Besides, tell me comrade if the F-35 is really such a lemon then why is Kremlin employing a lot of anti-F35 bots and trolls whose job are only to discredit the F-35 in defense forums, news and Youtube comments sections. Aside from that Kremlin's troll factory and propaganda outlets are constantly spouting anti-F35 smears aimed at American and potential F-35 client countries?

If the F-35 is such a lemon why spend so much resources trying to discredit it? Why can't Russia just be silent about the defects of the F-35 and let America and her allies buy this useless junk you say? As the old saying goes: "DO NOT INTERRUPT YOUR ENEMY WHEN HE'S COMMITTING MISTAKES."

Denis Shurygin is Russian.
But he is not a defence expert.
He is ignorant clawn playing defence expert for non-demanding media.

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[Kshithij]

Clearly the F-35 didn't stall in the video.

The Rafale simply cannot match that kind of high AOA capability.



Another unsubstantiated claim. The F-35 can turn inside an F-16's turn due to higher AOA. That's what the Norwegian test pilot said of the F-35 (that pilot was previously an F-16 pilot).

Then as far as energy into the turn, the F-35 can muster a lot of energy thanks to massive F135 engine and lack of TVC. Besides, in a real dogfight 4th and so called 4.5 gen fighters' ability to maneuver will be severely hampered by external weapons, sensors and fuel tanks, which causes drag penalty by as much as 40%. The F-35 on the other hand will fight clean.

The external weapons may be drag inducing in other planes but F35 has merely 2 weapons bay and 2 WVR bay internally. That is nowhere enough. We need more weapons.

The F135 engine is 125/190kN ones and are not better than twin engine planes with 2 F414 or higher powered engines.

Also, considering that F35 is a bulky plane, with large fuselage and lower thrust to weight compared to other planes with similar weight, the drag from external weapons may be compensated.

 

[BON PLAN]

The F-35 can turn inside an F-16's turn due to higher AOA.

???? And when AoA reach 35°? in the same config F16 is 20 or 25° max.
It degrades its energy faster because of the higher AoA, it is the result, not a faster turn.
How can a fighter turning faster when it is limited to 7G? (because it can't reach 9G my Dear).

 

[BON PLAN]

in a real dogfight 4th and so called 4.5 gen fighters' ability to maneuver will be severely hampered by external weapons, sensors and fuel tanks, which causes drag penalty by as much as 40%.

Nice !
F35 drag a max even without loads. Just see it front front. it is as aerodynamic as a truck.

 

[BON PLAN]

The Rafale simply cannot match that kind of high AOA capability.

11G versus 7G.

Sure ! the latter is more agile.

Are you paid by LM ?

 

[Flame Thrower]

IAF only had 40 to 50 Mirage 2000. Some of them used for deterrence, sa a small fllet available for other role.
The primarily fonction of M2000 was air to air. I don't uderstand why, except your renowned french bashing, you say it didn't have proper radar and AtoA missile.

And a fact, my dear Smestarz : The SOLE F16 shoot down during a air air engagement was by a greek M2000 in 1996 (so a Mirage 2000 with old RDM radar, against newer F16 D !).

@BON PLAN why don't you also mention that the missile which downed F16D is Magic 2 (infrared guided missile).

 

[smestarz]

India did just purchase 36 planes and no need to be bowing for that

The french dont have the money to develop, buy and use a new plane, and guess for another 50 years they might just keep upgrading Rafale, In a way it might look like WW1 biplane having some AESA (an example)

2 Mirage 2000 give better capability than a Rafale in Strike, but in A2A role, Rafale would be better due to better range radar and Meteor. Else there was no need for AdlA to use Mirage 2000 in Syria, they should have simply used Rafale to drop more ordinance.

3. France and Germany will have to work together for the survival of European defence industry. Else you have nothing for 5th Gen and that might have similar effect how India stopped producing or developing plane after HF-24 and it would be the day when Europe has to buy plane from India

4. I was right in a way.. MMRCA was cancelled was it not ???? 126 + 63 .. where are they? It was all cut down to 36 just to try and please IAF.

MRCBF would go perhaps to F/A-18 Super hornet, because importantly they have folding wings, and would be more suited to Indian navy. Rafale would lose because they might ask Indian navy to fund for the development of folding wings..

Smestarz ! The return...

1) Rafale XL will come after F4 or MLU. In 15 years ? It will be a totaly new plane. But you will probably be among those that will say "it's a modernised Super Mirage 4000"....
2) Mirage 2000 were upgrading because Rafale were not purchased quickly enough for the air force needs. We need M2000 because of a shortage of Rafale. Just as US will rely on old F15 and F16 even when all the F22 are delivered and during the deliveries of F35.
3) I don't think France and Germany will work together on a futur fighter.
4) About BS : don't forget that we didn't agree about the indian purchase of rafale. You say : they will NEVER take it. I say it will come. You showed your propension to weave BS. It's one of your very rare speciality.

Good day.

 

[smestarz]

Wow, its wonderful when a fully armed Greek Mirage 2000 shoots down F-16 which is in training mission and that count as credible kill .. its wonderful.. thats very similar as shooting down an airliner and claim that the weapon is tested in action.. good going flame thrower, are you really aware of that particular incident? It was not technically an Air to air combat, just the greek pilot was with itchy trigger finger..

@BON PLAN why don't you also mention that the missile which downed F16D is Magic 2 (infrared guided missile).

 

[asianobserve]

11G versus 7G.

Sure ! the latter is more agile.

Are you paid by LM ?

You're getting tiresome. F-35A is rated 9g; F-35B is 7; while F-35C is 7.5 in their upcoming 3f software configuration. Right now F-35A is still limited to 7g while awaiting for the 3f software drop.

Impressively, despite being limited to 7g, Rafale cannot duplicate tge same maneuvers of the F-35 in the video clips I posted. Imagine what will happen if the F-35 finally accepts 3f software...

BTW, all fighter jets are only rated up to 9g. That is due to human limitations not the airframes. So Rafale and the F-35 A can absorb higher g than 9g. But the question is will the pilot be awake to fly the plane past 9g?

And no, I'm not paid by anyone. I'm wasting my time posting here at my own initiative, unlike some...

 

[asianobserve]

Nice !
F35 drag a max even without loads. Just see it front front. it is as aerodynamic as a truck.

So much baseless talk. I already showed you videos of F-35 showing high AOA capabilities and yet all you can reply is "truck."