Know Your 'Rafale'

[asianobserve]

???? And when AoA reach 35°? in the same config F16 is 20 or 25° max.
It degrades its energy faster because of the higher AoA, it is the result, not a faster turn.
How can a fighter turning faster when it is limited to 7G? (because it can't reach 9G my Dear).

Just look at how F-35 makes a tight turn with the nose even pointing tighter ( much like a turn inside a turn) in the 3i software maneuver videos I posted earlier. The F-35 did not clearly lose energy in the turn.

Now, does Rafale have that capability? Again, NO!

 

[asianobserve]

The external weapons may be drag inducing in other planes but F35 has merely 2 weapons bay and 2 WVR bay internally. That is nowhere enough. We need more weapons.

The F135 engine is 125/190kN ones and are not better than twin engine planes with 2 F414 or higher powered engines.

Also, considering that F35 is a bulky plane, with large fuselage and lower thrust to weight compared to other planes with similar weight, the drag from external weapons may be compensated.

A single engine is lighter, has lesser frontal area overall than 2 engines combined. So it should be more effocient than 2 engines.

The T/W ratio of legacy planes may be higher but that is in their clean configurstion. An F-16 or Rafale with full weapons load and extetnal tanks are like Christmas trees resulting in up to 40% more drag.

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

F-35A in the final configuration is rated 9G; F-35-B is 7G; and F-35C is 7.5G.

9G is the max g limit of all fighter planes since it is accepted that pilots will already have a hard time flying the jet beyond 9G. But in reality, the airframes of all fighters rated 9G are capable of handling more than 9G forces for short periods of time.

http://www.aero-news.net/annticker.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=802de9b6-76f2-4d61-9642-6e02cc1d64b7

Airframe can handle 13.5g.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Wow, its wonderful when a fully armed Greek Mirage 2000 shoots down F-16 which is in training mission and that count as credible kill .. its wonderful.. thats very similar as shooting down an airliner and claim that the weapon is tested in action.. good going flame thrower, are you really aware of that particular incident? It was not technically an Air to air combat, just the greek pilot was with itchy trigger finger..

I am fully aware of the incident. I never quoted that Mirage is more powerful than F-16D. I also know that missile was fired in less than 10 miles and no flares were deployed.

Now.....

@BON PLAN had used this example to showcase this incident to prove capability of Mirage 2000 over F-16D.

And I pointed out that missile used to down is an IR guided one. I meant this is a rather stupid example to portray the radar capability of Mirage 2000.

Before we go any further, this discussion happened over 20 pages ago. If I had noticed before posting it. I'd not have replied in the first place.

 

[smestarz]

Is this article credible or is it fanboysim

http://www.aero-news.net/annticker.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=802de9b6-76f2-4d61-9642-6e02cc1d64b7

Airframe can handle 13.5g.

 

[smestarz]

His reaction actually was 4 letter word starting with F and rhyming with Truck

So much baseless talk. I already showed you videos of F-35 showing high AOA capabilities and yet all you can reply is "truck."

 

[asianobserve]

Here is the thrust to weight ratio comparison between Rafale and the F-35:

Rafale
Weights
Empty: 21,000
Fuel: 5,180 lbs (50%)

Weapons: 2,265lbs
4 x Meteor A-A missiles 1628 lbs
2 x Magic A-A missiles 387lbs
125 rounds: (dont know the weight, estimate 250 lbs [2lbs per round])

combat Weight:28,445

Thrust:
Dry: 22,500
AB: 34,000

T/W ratio:
Dry: 0.79
AB: 1.20

Wing Loading: 57.81/sq ft
_______________________________

F-35A

Weights
Empty: 29,300
Fuel: 5,540 (30%)

Weapons: 1,932 lbs
4 x Aim 120C missiles: 1,340 lbs
2 x Aim 9X missiles: 376 lbs
180 rounds: (dont know the weight, estimate 216 lbs [1.2lbs per round])

Combat weight: 36,772

Thrust
Dry: 28,000
AB: 43,000

TW Ratio
Dry:0.76
AB: 1.16
Wing Loading:79.9 lbs/ sq ft.

It's very clear that Rafale has no significant T/W ratio advantage over the F-35. However the figure above does not count in the drag induced by storing weapons and external tanks externally, which would be significant for Rafale.

But as discussed above with video proof the F-35 has a significant advantage over Rafale in maneuvering most notably high AOA capabilities and insane TVC-like turns.

 

[asianobserve]

Interestingly, the fuel figure for the F-35 above is only 30% full of its fuel tank which means that F-35 has about 17,000 lbs internal fuel capacity or 9520 liters.

Rafale on the other hand has only 10,360 lbs or 5,800 liters full internal fuel capacity. That means for Rafale to match the range of an F-35 it has to use two 2000 liters drop tanks. That will entail a lot of drag. Not to mention that Rafale still has to hang all its missiles under its wings. The approx. 40% drag penalty thetefore is not far fetched for a fully loaded Rafale. For sure that's not going to be an agile aircraft especially if compared to F-35.

 

[gadeshi]

11G versus 7G.

Sure ! the latter is more agile.

Are you paid by LM ?

We cannot talk about AoA and G themselves but must evaluate G available by thrust in certain point. E. G. can the plane take an advantage of its high G possibilities or not in real action.
This comparison is more interesting.

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[asianobserve]

We cannot talk about AoA and G themselves but must evaluate G available by thrust in certain point. E. G. can the plane take an advantage of its high G possibilities or not in real action.
This comparison is more interesting.

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The non-after burning (dry) T/W advantage of Rafale of the F-35 is only 0.03 while the afterburning T/W advantage of Rafale over the the F-35 is only 0.04. These are very negligible figures.

The biggest problem for Rafale is that those numbers are reached with it storing all its 6 missiles under its wings while the F-35 only has 2 missiles stored externally. I would say that all things considered, including drag from weapons stored externally, the F-35 has more energy than Rafale.

Re, taking advantage of higher G rating for Rafale versus F-35, which as I said is very negligible, we must take note that all fighter aircrafts are officially limited only to 9g max. That's the maximum tolerable g forces accepted for pilots everywhere. Beyond that pilots would already lose consciousness or otherwise not be able to function properly as they will be focusing all their strength and attention just staying awake.

Thus with more or less the same T/W ratios and both being limited to 9gs, the F-35 would trash the Rafale in dogfighting agility since Rafale will be slowed down by external stores. The F-35 will have no problem pointing its nose at Rafale since it has far high AOA capability (as shown by demo videos of the F-35). Plus the fact that the F-35 has an excellent HMD while French Rafale has none, then Rafale in a dogfight against the F-35 will be toasted.

 

[asianobserve]

Just look at this turning demo even while the F-35 is still limited to 7gs under 3i software:


Take note the maneuvers at 0.05 and 2:52. It's extraordinary how the F-35's nose can be pointed tighter than the actual turn. This is what the Norwegian F-35 test pilot (a vertern of F-16) has been referring to. That F-35 easily points its nose at the F-16 in a turn.

 

[asianobserve]

But of course the greatest advantage of the F-35 over Rafale in a fight is that the F-35 is not only a street brawler it is first and foremost a sniper. The F-35 will normally snipe you first with his Barret .50 cal. while hidden and undetected and then if that fails then he transforms to Jason Bourne for street brawling.

 

[BON PLAN]

Now, does Rafale have that capability? Again, NO!

You don't want to see it !
F35 make one sharp quick turn and you are concluding it's a world class agile plane. Globally it is a lazy plane. Needed to recover energy after manoeuvers (watch it carefully).
Clearly Rafale is far more agile than F35 ! but all with fluence, easier.
Rafale is probably, in the west (because we don't know well the chinese products) the second best dog fighter after F22. It outmatched EF and Gripen (even if Gripen has the same instantaneous turn rate, it can't match in sustain turn rate because under powered)

Definitively 11G >> 7G. That all.

 

[BON PLAN]

http://www.aero-news.net/annticker.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=802de9b6-76f2-4d61-9642-6e02cc1d64b7

Airframe can handle 13.5g.

You are confusing design limit and real flight performance !

and 13.5G is 150% of the design limit => design limit is 13.5G / 1.5 = 9G.

So 9G is the design limit. Real perf is less than 9G, because you can't surpass the design limit.

 

[BON PLAN]

It's very clear that Rafale has no significant T/W ratio advantage over the F-35. However the figure above does not count in the drag induced by storing weapons and external tanks externally, which would be significant for Rafale.

But as discussed above with video proof the F-35 has a significant advantage over Rafale in maneuvering most notably high AOA capabilities and insane TVC-like turns.

T to W ratio is a very interessant data.
Aerodynamism of the frame another one. And once again it's not in favour of the F35.
As F35 is more a truck than a sparrow, the higher the speed is, the worst the F35 perf are.

Why do you think F35 can't supercruise even with 12 tons dry thrust ?
Why do you think F35 only can reach mach 1.5 (maybe 1.6) even with 18 tons thrust ?

because it is as aerodynamical as a piece of sugar.

 

[BON PLAN]

The biggest problem for Rafale is that those numbers are reached with it storing all its 6 missiles under its wings while the F-35 only has 2 missiles stored externally. I would say that all things considered, including drag from weapons stored externally, the F-35 has more energy than Rafale.

As posted before, Rafale M with six AAM (the heavier model, 600kg more than the single seat air model) can reach Mach1.4 without reheat !!!
F35 in clean and quite empty can't supercruise (It can....mach 1.2 in a light dive ! :bounce

 

[gadeshi]

Just look at this turning demo even while the F-35 is still limited to 7gs under 3i software:


Take note the maneuvers at 0.05 and 2:52. It's extraordinary how the F-35's nose can be pointed tighter than the actual turn. This is what the Norwegian F-35 test pilot (a vertern of F-16) has been referring to. That F-35 easily points its nose at the F-16 in a turn.

Those videos are nothing.
Most of "outstanding maneuvers" are "achieved" by camera angles and restricted view ports.
This talks about operator's skills but not about F-35 performance.

It resembles me much J-20 first videos where Chinese fanboys rotated their cameras and adjusted viewports the same way as on this video to "show maneuverability" but...
All gone its true place when static camera / wide viewport videos arrived...

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[gadeshi]

As posted before, Rafale M with six AAM (the heavier model, 600kg more than the single seat air model) can reach Mach1.4 without reheat !!!
F35 in clean and quite empty can't supercruise (It can....mach 1.2 in a light dive ! :bounce

None of them can supercruise loaded.
That's all proofless rumours.

But!

Rafale (even B one) can supercruise empty unlike F-35 that cannot supercruise at all due to enormous middel cross-section and single-mode (subsonic) optimised non-controllable air intakes.

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[Kshithij]

But of course the greatest advantage of the F-35 over Rafale in a fight is that the F-35 is not only a street brawler it is first and foremost a sniper. The F-35 will normally snipe you first with his Barret .50 cal. while hidden and undetected and then if that fails then he transforms to Jason Bourne for street brawling.

F35 carries only 2 WVR internally with 2 more heavy weapons like 1000kg standoff missile. If anything more is to be carried, it is external pylon only. So, with stealth configuration, F35 can't do sniping as it has mere revolvers instead of sniper rifle.

 

[gadeshi]

F35 carries only 2 WVR internally with 2 more heavy weapons like 1000kg standoff missile. If anything more is to be carried, it is external pylon only. So, with stealth configuration, F35 can't do sniping as it has mere revolvers instead of sniper rifle.

F-35 cannot carry any standoff weapons inside its MWBs exept for probably JSOW, but JSOW is a stand-off weapon for technically retarded enemies only.

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