Know Your 'Rafale'

[asianobserve]

I AGREE.
It is called "to purchase the US umbrella".

Just admit it Rafale is already old and inadequate compared to the F-35. This is the reason why highly professional air forces are buying the F-35 over Rafale. Imagine even Belgium which hosts the EU capital (Brussels) is favoring the F-35! And France is bribing it no less to the tune of 20Billion Euros! While the Luftwaffe openly favors the F-35 over their own indigenous EF! These countries will always be under US protection under NATO no matter what fighter they induct to their air forces. So this claim that those buying the F-35 is doing it so they can compel the US to protect them is hogwash. In fact France is firmly under US umbrella despite the fact that it does not buy or employ frontline American fighters. Remember how America saved France's arse in Libya?

The only reason that France is sticking with the Rafale is that it does not have the resources to develop its own 5th gen fighter to match the F-35! That's why snake oil salesmen are deployed instead to claim crazy capabilities for Rafale while making outrageous claims about the new F-35.

 

[BON PLAN]

Just admit it Rafale is already old and inadequate compared to the F-35. This is the reason why highly professional air forces are buying the F-35 over Rafale. Imagine even Belgium which hosts the EU capital (Brussels) is favoring the F-35! And France is bribing it no less to the tune of 20Billion Euros! While the Luftwaffe openly favors the F-35 over their own indigenous EF! These countries will always be under US protection under NATO no matter what fighter they induct to their air forces. So this claim that those buying the F-35 is doing it so they can compel the US to protect them is hogwash. In fact France is firmly under US umbrella despite the fact that it does not buy or employ frontline American fighters. Remember how America saved France's arse in Libya?

The only reason that France is sticking with the Rafale is that it does not have the resources to develop its own 5th gen fighter to match the F-35! That's why snake oil salesmen are deployed instead to claim crazy capabilities for Rafale while making outrageous claims about the new F-35.

Just admit the F35 is a failure, due to the too difficult problem to merge 3 different kind of beast (maily the STOVL one with the other two).

Belgium hasn't made its choice ! let them do.

Germany high rank generals are all NATO influenced and mainly train in the US ! They once again choose the US umbrella. But the politics don't agree and have the last word (like in Switzerland or South Korea...).

The next french plane after Rafale will be a XL version of Rafale. Why? Because it's a unrevaled aerodynamic formula and because we need a bigger frame to carry the next gen nuclear air breath missisle.
It will carry its air to air missile inside. Not specially for stealth (but also fo) but to increase the life of the missile (first MICA had only 50 hours of life under the wings !).
The main air to ground weapons will be carried in stealth containers.

 

[BON PLAN]

F35 needed to sustain higher AoA than a F16 in low speed.

When the F16 reach 25°, just imagine where is the F35 !

stall stall stall.....

 

[nongaddarliberal]

The next french plane after Rafale will be a XL version of Rafale. Why? Because it's a unrevaled aerodynamic formula and because we need a bigger frame to carry the next gen nuclear air breath missisle.
It will carry its air to air missile inside. Not specially for stealth (but also fo) but to increase the life of the missile (first MICA had only 50 hours of life under the wings !).
The main air to ground weapons will be carried in stealth containers.

That sounds really cool. Where did you get this info? Is it official, or just rumours from forums?

 

[BON PLAN]

The super agile, super cruise powerpoint F35 in 2002 against rafale F4.
I doubt agility and super cruise only weight 0,02 on a 10 note.

 

[BON PLAN]

That sounds really cool. Where did you get this info? Is it official, or just rumours from forums?

A mix of the two.
French air force HQ general said some months ago that the general config of Rafale is excellent, but that the successor of the deterrence missile ASMP A, probably hypersonic, will need a bigger platform. So a kind of Rafale XL.

For the internal bay, it's not official, but when you see the life of a fighter, it carry air to ground weapons few time. So it' clever to embark AAM, but to rely on external stealth pod for the AtoG weaponery, and only for the very first days of a war. After that, if you win the air superiority and have smashed the SAM, you don't need stealth no more.

One of the main problem of F35 is that it is fat all his life long just to embark some time a air to ground load.
Even in a air only config, it has a heavy drag.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

A mix of the two.
French air force HQ general said some months ago that the general config of Rafale is excellent, but that the successor of the deterrence missile ASMP A, probably hypersonic, will need a bigger platform. So a kind of Rafale XL.

For the internal bay, it's not official, but when you see the life of a fighter, it carry air to ground weapons few time. So it' clever to embark AAM, but to rely on external stealth pod for the AtoG weaponery, and only for the very first days of a war. After that, if you win the air superiority and have smashed the SAM, you don't need stealth no more.

One of the main problem of F35 is that it is fat all his life long just to embark some time a air to ground load.
Even in a air only config, it has a heavy drag.

The F 35 is a one trick pony, which is stealth. In all other aspects, it can't even match 4th gen fighters. If there is any significant advancement in anti stealth technology, the F 35 is done. Other 5th gen fighter programs have other strengths to fall back on, not only stealth, but also speed, range, maneuverability and payload.

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

I'm afraid you will have to wait until 5Z to see a 9G plane.

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1025143

Please check your facts. Mach 1.61 and 9.9 g.

 

[BON PLAN]

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1025143

Please check your facts. Mach 1.61 and 9.9 g.

7 years ago .....
Are we obliged to understand a single answer on a forum, seven years ago ?

If you want i can create a new avatar and write under it that Rafale is VLO and equipped with secret weapon bays on the back ?

:bs:

 

[BON PLAN]

The F 35 is a one trick pony, which is stealth. In all other aspects, it can't even match 4th gen fighters. If there is any significant advancement in anti stealth technology, the F 35 is done. Other 5th gen fighter programs have other strengths to fall back on, not only stealth, but also speed, range, maneuverability and payload.

Israeli top brass said himself that F35 stealth will vanished in 5 to 10 years... thanks to multistatic radars for exemple.

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

Israeli top brass said himself that F35 stealth will vanished in 5 to 10 years... thanks to multistatic radars for exemple.

Then if F 35 won't survive L band , rafale, EF are all gone. There is outmaneuvering a 40g Mach 5 SAM missile with TVC and AESA radars that can cover 500 - 1000 km. Choose your arguments wisely.

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

The F 35 is a one trick pony, which is stealth. In all other aspects, it can't even match 4th gen fighters. If there is any significant advancement in anti stealth technology, the F 35 is done. Other 5th gen fighter programs have other strengths to fall back on, not only stealth, but also speed, range, maneuverability and payload.

http://www.businessinsider.in/Heres...he-Heritage-Foundation/slideshow/53579520.cms

Actual facts.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

An aircraft of a particular generation is judged based on how it does against other aircraft of its own generation, not how it compares to aircraft of previous generations. The Su 35 is considered good because it can go up against Eurofighter, an aircraft of its own generation. No one compares it to f4 phantom. The F 16 was considered good because it could go up against mig 29. No one compared it to Mig 21.

But the great f 35 is one such aircraft whose whole marketing is based on it's performance against previous generation aircraft. People compare it to F 16, Eurofighter, Rafale etc. But when 5th gen fighter programs of other nations mature, like the PAK FA, or the upcoming Franco German fighter, then the f 35 will be the worst fighter of its own generation. Let us remember, America also reached 4th generation many years before every other nation, with the f 15. But it was designed to fully match any projected fighter of its own generation, and it more or less did.

 

[asianobserve]

F35 needed to sustain higher AoA than a F16 in low speed.

When the F16 reach 25°, just imagine where is the F35 !

stall stall stall.....

High AOA maneuvers is an illustration that a plane has high resistance to stalling. At the manner that the F-35 has demonstrated its low speed high AOA capabilties in the PAris Air Show any other ordinary plane would have already stalled. Rafale certainly cannot and does not demostrate such flying qualities and thus it's safe to assume that Rafale is not capable of such maneuvers.

Watch again the video of F-35's demo at the PAris Air Show, take note at the portion of the video starting at 1:50:


Question, do you have proof that Rafale os capable of such high AOA maneuvers? At that insanely low speed and high AOA delta winged Rafale would have already fallen out of the sky!

 

[asianobserve]

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1025143

Please check your facts. Mach 1.61 and 9.9 g.

F-35A in the final configuration is rated 9G; F-35-B is 7G; and F-35C is 7.5G.

9G is the max g limit of all fighter planes since it is accepted that pilots will already have a hard time flying the jet beyond 9G. But in reality, the airframes of all fighters rated 9G are capable of handling more than 9G forces for short periods of time.

 

[asianobserve]

http://www.businessinsider.in/Heres...he-Heritage-Foundation/slideshow/53579520.cms

Actual facts.

The thing is that Dassault's snake oil salesmen and some converts have trained themselves to spout the same lines over and and over again about the F-35, probably believing that if they repeat these falsities long enough that people will believe them. One of these often repeated lies is that the F-35 is only good on a straight line, but then when I showed them actual videos of F-35 doing maneuvers that only TVC-equipped planes can do they would they would not comment on the video and instead they would start repeating their mantra again that the F-35 is only good in a straight line...

But guess what? These snake oil salesmen of Dassault can only fool the unitiated. Actually, whenever the Rafale goes up against the F-35 on a full-on fighter selection process the F-35 always win!

Then Dassault's salesmen again will say that that's because these air forces are buying the F-35 for American umbrella. But when I pointed out to them that these countries would always be under American security umbrella despite not buying the F-35 since America is constrained by treaties to do it, much like how France is under American security umbrella despite not buying American fighters, then they would again revert to their default mode of "ignore."

That's why I would always say that these Dasault snake oil salesmen are some of the industry's most desperate vendors...

 

[BON PLAN]

High AOA maneuvers is an illustration that a plane has high resistance to stalling. At the manner that the F-35 has demonstrated its low speed high AOA capabilties in the PAris Air Show any other ordinary plane would have already stalled. Rafale certainly cannot and does not demostrate such flying qualities and thus it's safe to assume that Rafale is not capable of such maneuvers.

Watch again the video of F-35's demo at the PAris Air Show, take note at the portion of the video starting at 1:50:


Question, do you have proof that Rafale os capable of such high AOA maneuvers? At that insanely low speed and high AOA delta winged Rafale would have already fallen out of the sky!

My picture shows another thing : to sustain a certain speed, F35 need a higher AoA than F16 (it's clearly visible). But AoA can't reach the sky ! above 35° at max it's stall. And when a F35 reach 35° the other planes (F16, EF, Gripen, Mig29, Su30...) are in a confortable area and are far more agile.
A F35 in a WVR is dead.

Some may say that F35 don't need to go in WVR. It's wrong.
Wrong because the other "true" 5th gen US fighter, F22, is TVC equipped and received Helmet and short range AAM + canon so as to be able to fight in WVR. It was designed for from the early beginning.
Wrong because some engagement rules need now and much more tomorrow to positively identificate a target. Even with a nice optical/IR system you can't at more than 20 to 30 Km. WVR is then near... specially if the target is approaching.

It's only a marketing argument to say F35 will destroy all the opponent from dozen miles away. Only because it can't win in any other situation. It's a fat turkey, a kind of new Tornado ADV, smashed by all the other plane against it.

 

[BON PLAN]

The thing is that Dassault's snake oil salesmen and some converts have trained themselves to spout the same lines over and and over again about the F-35, probably believing that if they repeat these falsities long enough that people will believe them. One of these often repeated lies is that the F-35 is only good on a straight line, but then when I showed them actual videos of F-35 doing maneuvers that only TVC-equipped planes can do they would they would not comment on the video and instead they would start repeating their mantra again that the F-35 is only good in a straight line...

But guess what? These snake oil salesmen of Dassault can only fool the unitiated. Actually, whenever the Rafale goes up against the F-35 on a full-on fighter selection process the F-35 always win!

Then Dassault's salesmen again will say that that's because these air forces are buying the F-35 for American umbrella. But when I pointed out to them that these countries would always be under American security umbrella despite not buying the F-35 since America is constrained by treaties to do it, much like how France is under American security umbrella despite not buying American fighters, then they would again revert to their default mode of "ignore."

That's why I would always say that these Dasault snake oil salesmen are some of the industry's most desperate vendors...

USA is 7th bigger than France.
US can offered an umbrella France can't (and the sell of a fighter is also (mainly?) a political affair, see Swiss and South Korea)
LM is 8h bigger than Dassault.

We will see at the end if LM export more than 8 time the Rafale Qty.

 

[asianobserve]

My picture shows another thing : to sustain a certain speed, F35 need a higher AoA than F16 (it's clearly visible). But AoA can't reach the sky ! above 35° at max it's stall. And when a F35 reach 35° the other planes (F16, EF, Gripen, Mig29, Su30...) are in a confortable area and are far more agile.
A F35 in a WVR is dead.

The ability to do high AOA has nothing to do with speed. It is simply the ability of the aircraft's nose to be pointed in a certain direction. This is most useful in dogfights since missiles are aligned with the nose of the aircraft. Thus where the nose is pointed is also where the missiles are pointed.

Watch how the F-35's nose is turned tighter inwards in a turn in the video clip I posted about 3i software maneuvers.

What it means is that in a dogfight the plane that can quickly point its nose at the enemy will most likely win.

Now that's high AOA for you.

Aside from high AOA maneuvering capability the F-35 also showed in Paris Air Show that it can match extreme maneuvers that normally only TVC-equipped aircrafts can do like back flips and rudder turns:


Can Rafale do these maneuvers? No!

Some may say that F35 don't need to go in WVR. It's wrong.
Wrong because the other "true" 5th gen US fighter, F22, is TVC equipped and received Helmet and short range AAM + canon so as to be able to fight in WVR. It was designed for from the early beginning.
Wrong because some engagement rules need now and much more tomorrow to positively identificate a target. Even with a nice optical/IR system you can't at more than 20 to 30 Km. WVR is then near... specially if the target is approaching.

It's only a marketing argument to say F35 will destroy all the opponent from dozen miles away. Only because it can't win in any other situation. It's a fat turkey, a kind of new Tornado ADV, smashed by all the other plane against it.

Both the F-22 and the F-35 are designed to primarily fight from BVR and secondarily WVR. There is no point in getting to fistfight with your enemy when you can knock him down from a far with a barret 50 cal sniper rifle. But as the videos of F-22 and F-35 demos will show if the fight do end up in WVR they are more than capable to beat the enemies.

 

[asianobserve]

USA is 7th bigger than France.
US can offered an umbrella France can't (and the sell of a fighter is also (mainly?) a political affair, see Swiss and South Korea)

These countries that the US is selling the F-35 are very close allies already. America will defend these country militarily and politically even if these countries do not buy the F-35. Take the case of Germany. Germany is one of US' most important ally in Europe and did the US remove it from its protection when Germany opted to buy its own Tornado and EF? How about France? When France wanted to bring down Gaddafi in Libya and America was not in the mood to do it, did America abandon France? No! America supported France in Libya until Gaddafi was removed. And yet France is openly competing against the US for fighter sales.

LM is 8h bigger than Dassault.

We will see at the end if LM export more than 8 time the Rafale Qty.

There are so many countries that would like to buy the F-35! From the Middle East, to Asia and Europe. Even India will buy the F-35 if offered to it. But unfortunately, America will not sell the F-35 to these countries yet. Even so F-35 sales will easily top 8 times that of Rafale.