Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

Is that how it is in your World? The least worthy is always the one selected as the best?

Don't twist my words, just because you can't defend the lack of performance. I said from the start, that stealth is the key advantage of the F35 and that is what makes it worthy, because it's the only stealth fighter available.
And wrt to Luftwaffe, you just repeating wrong assumptions, which I already explained in the EF thread.

 

[asianobserve]

Don't twist my words, just because you can't defend the lack of performance. I said from the start, that stealth is the key advantage of the F35 and that is what makes it worthy, because it's the only stealth fighter available.
And wrt to Luftwaffe, you just repeating wrong assumptions, which I already explained in the EF thread.

Lack of performance you say? Can EF or Rafale do this?



And that F35 on display is still even limited to 7Gs... And more importantly, the F35 can do these maneuvers while carrying weapons.

Hence, I will say it again, every tender that the F35 went against Rafale or EF the F35 won. It is simply the better aircraft.

 

[gadeshi]

Lack of performance you say? Can EF or Rafale do this?



And that F35 on display is still even limited to 7Gs... And more importantly, the F35 can do these maneuvers while carrying weapons.

Hence, I will say it again, every tender that the F35 went against Rafale or EF the F35 won. It is simply the better aircraft.

This is simply an unprofessional and manipulative videos
BTW, look at the old Su-35 (Su-27M) performing supermaneurability being loaded with 12 AAMs...

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[Armand2REP]

This is simply an unprofessional and manipulative videos
BTW, look at the old Su-35 (Su-27M) performing supermaneurability being loaded with 12 AAMs...

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Exactly, 50% fuel and no payload is no demonstration of an aircraft's capabilities.

 

[gadeshi]

Exactly, 50% fuel and no payload is no demonstration of an aircraft's capabilities.

Moreover this, there were just incompatible maneuvers cut off from the video
Especially for Su-57 4-th prototype, which flown on MAKS-2015 with G5 limit

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[BON PLAN]

No offense, but between your desperate sales pitches and the rigorous evaluations made by the air forces of Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Japan, SoKor, Singapore and even Belgium, not to mention the very public endorsement of the Luftwaffe for F35, it's no contest whose conclusions weigh more..

Rigorous eval?
In NL, they evaluted a real plane with a powerpoint. Result, the second win by 0,02 on a 10 note.
But this powerpoint plane was suprecruising, super agile and affordable. It is none af that. They only can afford 85 units, No 68, No 52, No, finally 37. And the last three may be unfinanced !

:hippo:

 

[BON PLAN]

1960s produced the most aerodynamic fighter jets designed to date. They were to fly faster and higher. Epitome of that concept was F-4 Phantom: able to fly at Mach 2.2 and with climb rare of 41000 ft/min! For a brief period, doctrine held that turning combat would be impossible at supersonic speeds and little effort was made to include maneuverability in air combat. In reality, engagements quickly became subsonic, as pilots would slow down in an effort to get behind their adversaries. Therefore, next generation of US fighters were designed for good lift and maneuvering at low speeds thus sacrificing efficiency at high speed. F-35 continues that philosophy of low speed efficiency with added benefit of stealth. It is high maneuvering albeit slower than most previous jet fighters.

F35 a nice low speed flyer ? Just see Le Bourget show. Nothing so impressive, just the noise. It fly like the old and unpowered Mirage F1.

 

[BON PLAN]

Again, the air forces of Norway, Denmark, SoKor, etc. that evaluated F35 against both EF and Rafale has definitely concluded that the F35 iffers the best overall performance. I'd take anytine their assessment.

Rafale test in Norway or Denmark ? you are dreaming I think. No field test made like in Switzerland.

South Korea : Rafale was the technical winner against F15E. Boeing only win thanks to a new and extra bid "special relationship" note. Dassault never want to compete after that in SoKor because it's definitively a US market. No need to spend money for nothing.

 

[BON PLAN]

No fighter can carry Astra as long it's not fully developed. Rafale reportedly was ordered with Meteor, MICA EM and IR, which all are BVR missiles and what makes Astra unnecessary on them. Astra is mainly aimed at replacing R77 and R27 from Russian fighters.

I think the Astra integration on Rafale is ordered with the indigenization package (as Lightening pod, Spice 250, helmet, hot and cold engine starting...)

 

[BON PLAN]

'Nuff said.

Absolutely nothing impressiv. They are so confident they add a parachute in case of....
Definitively the plane is largely beaten by a F16 with external tanks. All is said.

 

[Wisemarko]

F35 a nice low speed flyer ? Just see Le Bourget show. Nothing so impressive, just the noise. It fly like the old and unpowered Mirage F1.

Nothing is close to Rafale.. it's the best. F-35 is not impressive at all and all the advanced airforces that are buying F-35 (3000 in total compared to less than 400 for Rafale) are doing so only because of "special relationship with US". Rafale can beat any past, present and future aircraft with utmost ease. Happy?

 

[BON PLAN]

Nothing is close to Rafale.. it's the best. F-35 is not impressive at all and all the advanced airforces that are buying F-35 (3000 in total compared to less than 400 for Rafale) are doing so only because of "special relationship with US". Rafale can beat any past, present and future aircraft with utmost ease. Happy?

The truth is that F35 is an attack aircraft, that LM and US govt. wanted to modify (essentially marketingly speaking) in a true fighter.
It was not, it is not and will never be a true all mission nice fighter. Too fat, too costly, too few effectivity without F22. And only US has F22, in too small Qty.

3000 will never be ordered.
UK reduce the orders (138 to.... 48, maybe 60)
Netherlands reduce orders from 85 to 37 (the last 3 are yet unfunded)
Italy from 131 to 90, and more cut to come.
Never imagine Turkey taking all its backlog.
Israel ? The plane are totally funded by US military help.
US themselves will never take the 1800 intended. Too costly, no FOC on the horizon. Another plane will come.

It's the biggest US weapon failure of all time.
Why ? Because of the "B" model.

 

[asianobserve]

Exactly, 50% fuel and no payload is no demonstration of an aircraft's capabilities.

Both planes in the video have low fuels as they are flying air demos. The other one has TVC while the other one has not and is in fact limited to fly 7g maneuvers.

Mind you even Rafales also have low fuel when it's doing demos and yet it's acrobatics are not as impressive as that F-35 in Paris that is actually still limited to 7g due to softwares. French pilots being desperate show offs would definitely have shown off already that kind of maneuver if Rafale is capable of it. But Rafale clearly cannot replicate the clip of F-35 performance posted above.

That is superb controllability example of the F-35 my friends. And mind you the F-35 does not have TVC and as I said eralier it's still even limited to 7g due to softwares.;-)

 

[asianobserve]

Absolutely nothing impressiv. They are so confident they add a parachute in case of....
Definitively the plane is largely beaten by a F16 with external tanks. All is said.

Hahaha! You're head is burried deep in your hands my friend. Perhaps if you just keep on repeating a lie it might make people believe it? Maybe nonprofessionals. But professional air forces are certainly not taken by your bashings for every fighter tender that the F-35 has gone up against the Rafale the F-35 won. In most cases Dassault threw in the white flag even before the competition can start. Well that video I posted above partly explains it...

 

[asianobserve]

This is simply an unprofessional and manipulative videos
BTW, look at the old Su-35 (Su-27M) performing supermaneurability being loaded with 12 AAMs...

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These videos are certainly not doctored. These are actual clips from actual performances of Su57 anf F-35. If the only selling point of the Su57 is that it can dance in the air like a bellerina then it's in for big trouble since the F-35 is both a ballerina and a hiphop dancer!

 

[asianobserve]

The truth is that F35 is an attack aircraft, that LM and US govt. wanted to modify (essentially marketingly speaking) in a true fighter.
It was not, it is not and will never be a true all mission nice fighter. Too fat, too costly, too few effectivity without F22. And only US has F22, in too small Qty.

3000 will never be ordered.
UK reduce the orders (138 to.... 48, maybe 60)
Netherlands reduce orders from 85 to 37 (the last 3 are yet unfunded)
Italy from 131 to 90, and more cut to come.
Never imagine Turkey taking all its backlog.
Israel ? The plane are totally funded by US military help.
US themselves will never take the 1800 intended. Too costly, no FOC on the horizon. Another plane will come.

It's the biggest US weapon failure of all time.
Why ? Because of the "B" model.

It's an attack aircraft that's better than Rafale in maneuvering. Impressive huh? ;-)

Seriously, as the F-35 matures the more you'll see its true capabilities. The video above is just a foretaste. Now you know why your neighbors in Europe are stampeding towards the F-35? Perhaps France should ready 500Billion Euros to woe in Romania to buy Rafale?

 

[asianobserve]

Nothing is close to Rafale.. it's the best. F-35 is not impressive at all and all the advanced airforces that are buying F-35 (3000 in total compared to less than 400 for Rafale) are doing so only because of "special relationship with US". Rafale can beat any past, present and future aircraft with utmost ease. Happy?

In fact the country where EU's capital is located is vocally leaning towards the F-35 despite 20Billion Euros grease money from the French... I thought France is the strongest influence in the EU after Germany, what happened?

And what about Luftwaffe of the most powerful, influential and richest country in the EU, it wants also the F-35! And Germany is producing its own EF fighter! Holy mother of god!

Oh that F-35 is such a lemon!

 

[asianobserve]

Rigorous eval?
In NL, they evaluted a real plane with a powerpoint. Result, the second win by 0,02 on a 10 note.
But this powerpoint plane was suprecruising, super agile and affordable. It is none af that. They only can afford 85 units, No 68, No 52, No, finally 37. And the last three may be unfinanced !

:hippo:

That's even more damning for Rafale! If it can't beat a paper plane then how can it beat a real maneuvering one!

Seriously, if all you can say is that F-35 is loaded only with 50% fuel when Rafales are also the same during demos, then why haven't Rafale shown backflips or rudder turns in more than 10 years of airshow demos? No ballerina chops?

 

[asianobserve]

Rafale test in Norway or Denmark ? you are dreaming I think. No field test made like in Switzerland.

Switzerland chose Gripen over Rafale! Besides, they're not going to war. Perhaps the closest they'll go to war is shoot down some Airbus A320 hijacked by Islamic nutjobs.

And as the Swiss themselves said no to Gripen, it would be hilarious if they eventually end up buying the F-35...

South Korea : Rafale was the technical winner against F15E. Boeing only win thanks to a new and extra bid "special relationship" note. Dassault never want to compete after that in SoKor because it's definitively a US market. No need to spend money for nothing.

We're talking about F-35 versus Rafale. BTW, FYI the F-35 is such an inferior aircraft that South Korea is buying 20 more... Perhaps, SoKor needs the US more than France against NoKor but how about the country were Brussel 's is (despite 20Billion Euros bribe)? How about why the Luftwaffe wants F-35 over their very own EF?

 

[asianobserve]

Don't get me wrong. I do not seek to belittle Rafale. It's just that I find Dassault's marketing tactics disingenuous and condescending towards the intelligence of their clients. It's like claiming that an ounce of copper is more valuable than an ounce of gold.

For the limitation that Dassault has vis-a-vis the US defense giants I think Rafale is a great accomplishment. But to claim that Rafale that has been designed in the 70's or 80's is better than 21st century F-35, c'mon! You must always be truthful even in sales pitches. In the end your market will appreciate it more.

Perhaps of the bunch of 4th and so called 4.5th gen fighters Rafale is the best, perhaps. And certainly, it is on solid footing on 3 markets:

1. Those that cannot afford to buy and operate the F-35;
2. Those that can afford the F-35 but then Uncle Sam will not sell to; and,
3. Those that do not like anything American or Western.

I call these the "NON & NEVER" F-35 market.