Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

Ha! that one-sided video! You must be dreaming. We have a term for it --- OVER ADVERTISEMENT: you advertise something beyond the quality of the product. Only children will believe it.

Perhaps France can increase the economic carrots to Belgium to 100 Billion Euros. That might make them change their mind about Rafale...

Who are you going to believe? A video of Rafale with multiple locks on the F-22 or an F-22 pilot that is "marketing" a lie.

 

[asianobserve]

F35 with a limited flight envelop nearly 10 years after the beginning of the programm and a prototyp before? DO YOU STILL BELIEVE IN SANTA CLAUS ?
The flight envelop is the first thing cleared, before (new) engine, weapon system....

F35 second to F22? If I agree F22 is the king of the air, F35 is an ATTACK fighter. It's not because it has an AESA radar and some air to air missile that it's a game changer.

Record in red flag or other : WE NEVER HAD THE ENGAGEMENT RULES. Too easy ! First time a Mirage 2000-5 with MICA train against F16 and F15, the score was 40-0. We can't say now that M2000-5 is so unbeatable.

The real export career of the Rafale begun two years ago...

Australia, GB, Canada, New Zealand are quite others US states ! they all sucks uncle Sam dick.
Belgium? Let's spend some time.... a big surprise is very possible

No offense, but between your desperate sales pitches and the rigorous evaluations made by the air forces of Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Japan, SoKor, Singapore and even Belgium, not to mention the very public endorsement of the Luftwaffe for F35, it's no contest whose conclusions weigh more..

 

[asianobserve]

Who are you going to believe? A video of Rafale with multiple locks on the F-22 or an F-22 pilot that is "marketing" a lie.

That video does not tell you anything. The ROE is not known. It is not even known if it is a real simulated dogfight.

But please do continue with your dreams. I believe you're entitled to it. But while you're at it you can PM your co-Rafale marketer here to stop admitting that the F22 is the top fighter right now for it's making your claim of Rafale superiority comical...

 

[Sancho]

If the F35 is as you say not a good fighter then why has it won in all the successful tender it participated in?

Again, because it is the only stealth fighter on the market. That however doesn't mean it is the best fighter as a whole, it just means that it has a unique capability. The same unique capability that a Neuron UCAV has as well. But as a fighter, when you add flight performance for example, the F22 was the prefered choice. Not to mention that Israel and other customers would have preferred a twin seat version too. So there are reasons why ithis falls short as a fighter and there is 1 reason why it still has an edge so far.

If interoperability is their only purpose in buying F35

Intereoperaility is not a reason to buy F35, but to cut it's weak points! You use it as a forward sensor platform, to guide following F18, F15 or EFs, that offer the load capabilities and flight performance advantage, besides larger radars.

 

[asianobserve]

Again, because it is the only stealth fighter on the market. That however doesn't mean it is the best fighter as a whole, it just means that it has a unique capability. The same unique capability that a Neuron UCAV has as well. But as a fighter, when you add flight performance for example, the F22 was the prefered choice. Not to mention that Israel and other customers would have preferred a twin seat version too. So there are reasons why ithis falls short as a fighter and there is 1 reason why it still has an edge so far.

You should be more concrete on against what fighter in the market today does the F35 falls short against overall?

Intereoperaility is not a reason to buy F35, but to cut it's weak points! You use it as a forward sensor platform, to guide following F18, F15 or EFs, that offer the load capabilities and flight performance advantage, besides larger radars.

Exactly. Why do other NATO air forces need to buy F35 if all they need is to gain access to its stealth capabilities and sensors (to aid their legacy fighters in the rear) when the Americans can always do it for them. Note that in most of the NATO countries that are buying the F35 they are doing so to replace their legacy fighters.

But wait, if the F35 can exploit the forward air theater that 4th and 4.5th gen fighters cannot then doesn't that make F35 better (than the 4th and 4.5th gen fighters who must remain at the back)...? To me it's an (your) admission that it is. Anyway, that's your word.

BTW, you made me laugh a little bit with your claim that the reason the air forces mentioned above are buying F35 is that they want to cut its weak points by pairing it with their legacy fighters... that's just absurd.

 

[Sancho]

You should be more concrete on against what fighter in the market today does the F35 falls short against overall?

I was, when I gave the example of flight performance. If the F35 and the F22 were available, do you think Japan or Israel had ordered F35? Of course not, because the a simple EW upgrade with modern passive sensors makes the F22 as capable.
Similarly, Rafale and EF clearly offer more flight performance for air superioirty and air defence roles, just as they will be superior in any role when the F35 needs to carry external payloads (anti ship, cruise missile strike, recon), add the operational cost advantage of even these 2 expensive fighters and you know why interoperability is a factor. Stealth is a great capability, that however only adds advantages in specific missions and stages of a war. In others the lack of payload (internal carriage) and the high operational costs are disadvantages. That's why the USN wants to maintain the F35 and F18SH mix as well, since it's neither useful nor cost-effective to have an entire F35 fleet, when most enemies still have legacy fighters and the war on terror don't require stealth. Btw, USN initially wanted a naval F22 as well.

 

[asianobserve]

Similarly, Rafale and EF clearly offer more flight performance for air superioirty and air defence roles, just as they will be superior in any role when the F35 needs to carry external payloads (anti ship, cruise missile strike, recon), add the operational cost advantage of even these 2 expensive fighters and you know why interoperability is a factor.

Oh I see, the kinematic performance argument again. That argument is purely arbitrary and theoretical since there is no exhaustive fly-off between F35, EF and Rafale. Besides as dogfights are a toss-up, would you risk every air war and the lives of your pilots on the probability that the enemy will commit a mistake during dogfights or would it not be better to blast the enemy before they see you?

Stealth is a great capability, that however only adds advantages in specific missions and stages of a war. In others the lack of payload (internal carriage) and the high operational costs are disadvantages. That's why the USN wants to maintain the F35 and F18SH mix as well, since it's neither useful nor cost-effective to have an entire F35 fleet, when most enemies still have legacy fighters and the war on terror don't require stealth. Btw, USN initially wanted a naval F22 as well.

F35 can always fly clean or with ordinance hanging from its wings. So you don't need to buy EF or Rafale actually to take advantage of F35 stealth and sensors since the F35 can be arranged to stay ahead (clean) of the pack and be the pack (missile carrier) at the same time. Have you seen F35's "Beast Mode?"

 

[Sancho]

Oh I see, the kinematic performance argument again. That argument is purely arbitrary and theoretical since there is no exhaustive fly-off between F35, EF and Rafale.

It's only theoretical for people who wants to defend the F35, in practical terms however every air force takes flight performance and manuverability against the most likely enemy fighters to account.

F35 can always fly clean or with ordinance hanging from its wings.

If it has external loads, it's not clean anymore, nor will it have the stealth advantage. Which further plays in favour of EF and Rafale.

Have you seen F35's "Beast Mode?"

Lol yes...
http://amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/the...missiles?source=dam&__twitter_impression=true

 

[Sancho]

Translated

"The Rafale-Meteor couple will become a game changer"

In an interview with Air & Cosmos, General Eric Charpentier, commander of the Air Force Aviation Brigade, stresses that the arrival of the Meteor missile will revolutionize the air combat employment doctrine which remains a know-how

• Is air combat still a priority for the Air Force in the context of current air operations, which are very much focused on air-to-ground missions?

Indeed, both in the Levant and in the Sahel-Saharan belt, the pure air missions of attrition of the enemy's potential or intelligence gathering, as well as those of ground support of the land forces proceed without strong opposition. The freedom of action of the armies and the lesser dangerousness which results for the combat crews, except for the risk of ejection over the zones held by the enemy, come from the fact that these two theaters of operations remain globally permissive. Air superiority remains an inexorable prerequisite for any military operation, whether from the air or on the surface. In these theaters, it seems sufficiently established.
An informed observer will note nevertheless that this configuration is in no way perennial. In the Syrian theater, for example, confused or poorly coordinated situations between the two coalitions to maneuver are likely to lead to skirmishes in the air. To my knowledge, at least twice, American and Russian flights have been on the verge of fighting in an aerial combat that could have resulted in a fire action ......

........ For a multipurpose airplane crew, air defense and even ground attack, the combat ability remains obviously a fundamental know-how. Air combat is a fundamental discipline that must be part of the baggage of any fighter pilot ......

• How to maintain crew know-how in this area?

I insisted in my previous answer on the importance of possessing the know-how of air combat in the training of any "hunter".
Whatever the unit of origin and the system of weapons implemented, the hunter must be aware of the air situation (awarness situation), be able to decide if it is more relevant to break the commitment even remote for his survival, or pursue his mission, or seize the opportunity to conquer.
The fundamentals relating to air combat and the associated tactics are coherent, protected in the training courses of hunters, obviously to varying degrees depending on the operational missions assigned to the unit (multi-purpose, air defense or air defense). assault).
Air-to-air skills are thus developed on a daily basis and in a progressive manner by the fighter squadrons who remain responsible for the progression of the personnel entrusted to them, particularly in the case of operational qualification passes (of the capable crew members). to the war mission to the patrol leader capable of driving a device to combat in a dense and disputed environment) .........

• How does the Air Force prepare the arrival of the Meteor missile? Will it change your fighting abilities?

The experts have not yet agreed on the level of rupture that will bring the entry into service of the Meteor in the French armies. Personally, I am convinced that the arrival of this very long-range air-to-air missile will revolutionize the employment doctrine of the air forces that will be endowed with it, particularly French fighter aircraft.
Indeed, the performances of the couple Rafale / Meteor are such that it will undoubtedly become a "game changer", as was in his time the dreaded tandem M2000-5 / Mica, in the conduct of air operations.
The game will be changed first of all for any opponent who will have to fear in each Rafale a potential carrier of the Meteor and its impressive performances, out of the ordinary. For many more years, the missile's additional reach, lethality, and extensive connectivity will give it a real scarecrow status, as well as provide a skilled user with a decisive advantage in the battle space. .
With its possibilities of distant engagement and agility of shooting, which I will not detail for understandable reasons, the Meteor will be the essential weapon in the capacity of entry first, aptitude that we evoked a little earlier. In addition, the Rafale / Meteor couple will offer new or hitherto limited opportunities, such as the attack of high added value air targets (such as a flying command and control center or even a tanker aircraft), which are therefore highly protected.
But the situation will also be changed for the future employers who will be the Air Force and the embarked aviation.

http://www.air-cosmos.com/le-couple...m_medium=Sociallymap&utm_campaign=Sociallymap

 

[Sancho]

Defence ministry suspends all dealings with fugitive arms dealer Sanjay Bhandari’s firm
5 January, 2018

The defence ministry has suspended all business dealings with fugitive arms dealer Sanjay Bhandari’s firm Offset India Solutions (OIS). The firm is being investigated by the CBI for its links to alleged malpractices in the selection of a Swiss aircraft, Pilatus PC-7, to fill the Indian Air Force’s requirement for a basic trainer...

https://theprint.in/2018/01/05/defe...s-fugitive-arms-dealer-sanjay-bhandaris-firm/


Could have an effect on this too:

OIS Advanced Technology (OIS-AT) and Sagem announce Make-In-India Joint Venture Collaboration for AASM Hammer
19th April 2016

..."We are pleased that Sagem is collaborating with us with their combat proven, world leading, high precision munitions guidance and range extension kit. With its impressive list of advanced features, Sagem's AASM Hammer is the foundation for our joint venture to specifically cater to the requirements of the Indian Air Force under the government's Make In India program. This collaboration further endorses our corporate strategy of becoming the Industrial Partner of Choice for leading global companies", said Sanjay Bhandari, Chairman and Managing Director of OIS Advanced Technology.

https://www.safran-electronics-defe...india-joint-venture-collaboration-aasm-hammer

 

[Wisemarko]

Nice and interesting picture
F35 must keep a higher AoA to stay in formation with old brother F16.
And what about aerodynamic shape. The older is smooth, the younger is more like a piece of sugar.

1960s produced the most aerodynamic fighter jets designed to date. They were to fly faster and higher. Epitome of that concept was F-4 Phantom: able to fly at Mach 2.2 and with climb rare of 41000 ft/min! For a brief period, doctrine held that turning combat would be impossible at supersonic speeds and little effort was made to include maneuverability in air combat. In reality, engagements quickly became subsonic, as pilots would slow down in an effort to get behind their adversaries. Therefore, next generation of US fighters were designed for good lift and maneuvering at low speeds thus sacrificing efficiency at high speed. F-35 continues that philosophy of low speed efficiency with added benefit of stealth. It is high maneuvering albeit slower than most previous jet fighters.

 

[asianobserve]

It's only theoretical for people who wants to defend the F35, in practical terms however every air force takes flight performance and manuverability against the most likely enemy fighters to account.

Then the more you're on tenuous ground for the F35 has won against every full tender against Rafale and even EF. That means all the air forces of the countries that selected the F35 have concluded that the F35 has the best "flight performance and maneuverability against the most likely enemy" since according to you air forces always take these factors into account in selecting fighters.

If it has external loads, it's not clean anymore, nor will it have the stealth advantage. Which further plays in favour of EF and Rafale.

Again, the air forces of Norway, Denmark, SoKor, etc. that evaluated F35 against both EF and Rafale has definitely concluded that the F35 iffers the best overall performance. I'd take anytine their assessment.

 

[asianobserve]

Lol yes...
http://amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/the...missiles?source=dam&__twitter_impression=true

You're quoting another armchair F35 hater? Now that's funny! But no thank you! If LM has advertised the Beast Mode then it means that they can do it, perhaps not in the current 3f software but on future upgrades. Certainly F35's structure can take such load. In any case, the current internal load out in stealth mode is enough since F35 does not operate alone.

BTW, you can examine the Danish evaluation report on F35 versus EF versus SH. It's enlightening.

 

[WolfPack86]

Do Indian Rafale carry Indian made Astra missile.

 

[Sancho]

That means all the air forces of the countries that selected the F35 have concluded that the F35 has the best "flight performance and maneuverability against the most likely enemy" since according to you air forces always take these factors into account in selecting fighters.

Wrong, it means that any Air Force that can't afford more than 1 type of fighters, will choose the only avaliable stealth fighter, because of the stealth advantage, no matter how bad the flight performance is. But Air Forces that can afford more types, or develop own stealth fighters, will take flight performance to account too,,or prefer it.

 

[Sancho]

Do Indian Rafale carry Indian made Astra missile.

No fighter can carry Astra as long it's not fully developed. Rafale reportedly was ordered with Meteor, MICA EM and IR, which all are BVR missiles and what makes Astra unnecessary on them. Astra is mainly aimed at replacing R77 and R27 from Russian fighters.

 

[asianobserve]

Wrong, it means that any Air Force that can't afford more than 1 type of fighters, will choose the only avaliable stealth fighter, because of the stealth advantage, no matter how bad the flight performance is. But Air Forces that can afford more types, or develop own stealth fighters, will take flight performance to account too,,or prefer it.

Germany is definitely a "can afford" country and yet the Luftwaffe really is pushing for the F35 over EF. Why? Certainly not for lack of money. Anyway, no matter what its detractors say the record is really clear and undeniable, every time F35 comes up against EF, Rafale or SH in fighter competitions the F35 always comes out on top.

 

[Sancho]

Germany is definitely a "can afford" country and yet the Luftwaffe really is pushing for the F35 over EF. Why?

As I told you multiple times now, Luftwaffe has never made an official statement and they already have a high performance fighter with the EF, so even if they would select F35 for the nuclear role, they have the interoperability advantage and are not limited to low performance F35s only. They can benefit from stealth and the EF, just as France could benefit from Neuron and Rafale.

 

[asianobserve]

As I told you multiple times now, Luftwaffe has never made an official statement and they already have a high performance fighter with the EF, so even if they would select F35 for the nuclear role, they have the interoperability advantage and are not limited to low performance F35s only. They can benefit from stealth and the EF, just as France could benefit from Neuron and Rafale.

Is that how it is in your World? The least worthy is always the one selected as the best? Why would the Luftwaffe Chief publicly proclaim F35 as the jet he likes the Luftwaffe to have for their future when they have a better jet in the EF that they also happen to produce themselves? You're not making sense.

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

Absolutely not.
Acceleration : probably.
Agility : It was heavily beaten by a dual seat block 40 F16 equipped with 2 external tanks !

During the last Le Bourget show, a famous french test pilot, Guy Mitaux Maurouard, said that the F35 moved like a Mirage F1 ! a plane not agile as a M2000 or a F16.

'Nuff said.